INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy

Pursuant To Executive Order 11130, an Executive order creating a Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and S.J. Res. 137, 88th Congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas

Volume
VII

UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON, D.C.

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964

For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402

iii

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman

Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found in the Commission's Report.

v

Preface

The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume VII: Johnny Calvin Brewer, Julia Postal, Warren H. Burroughs, Bob K. Carroll, Thomas Alexander Hutson, C. T. Walker, Gerald Lynn Hill, J. M. Poe, John Gibson, James Putnam, Rio S. Pierce, Calvin Bud Owens, William Arthur Smith, George Jefferson Applin, Jr., Ray Hawkins, Sam Guinyard, and Helen Markham, who were present either in the vicinity of the Tippit crime scene or at the Texas Theatre, where Lee Harvey Oswald was arrested; L. D. Montgomery, Marvin Johnson, Seymour Weitzman, W. R. Westbrook, Elmer L. Boyd, Robert Lee Studebaker, C. N. Dhority, Richard M. Sims, Richard A. Stovall, Walter Eugene Potts, John P. Adamcik, Henry M. Moore, F. M. Turner, Guy F. Rose, W. E. Perry, Richard L. Clark, Don R. Ables, Daniel Gutierrez Lujan, C. W. Brown, L. C. Graves, James R. Leavelle, W. E. Barnes, J. B. Hicks, Harry D. Holmes, James W. Bookhout, Manning C. Clements, Gregory Lee Olds, H. Louis Nichols, and Forrest V. Sorrels, who participated in or observed various aspects of the investigation into the assassination; William J. Waldman and Mitchell J. Scibor, who testified concerning the purchase of the rifle used in the assassination; Heinz W. Michaelis, who testified concerning the purchase of the revolver used to kill Officer Tippit; J. C. Cason, Roy S. Truly, Warren Caster, Eddie Piper, William H. Shelly, and Mrs. Donald Baker, employees at the Texas School Book Depository Building; Edward Shields, an attendant at a parking lot near the TSBD; Thomas J. Kelley and John Joe Howlett of the Secret Service and J. C. Day, J. W. Fritz, and Marrion L. Baker of the Dallas police, all of whom participated in the investigation into the assassination; Mary Jane Robertson, a secretary with the Dallas police; Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt, a photography expert with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; James C. Cadigan, a questioned document expert with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; Earlene Roberts, housekeeper in the roominghouse occupied by Lee Harvey Oswald at the time of the assassination; Senator Ralph W. Yarborough, who was riding in the motorcade; Kenneth O'Donnell, Lawrence F. O'Brien, and David F. Powers, assistants to President Kennedy, who were riding in the motorcade and testified concerning the planning of the Dallas trip and the motorcade; Clifton C. Carter, assistant to President Johnson, Earle Cabell, former Mayor of Dallas, and Mrs. Earle Cabell, all of whom were riding in the motorcade; Philip L. Willis, James W. Altgens, and Abraham Zapruder, who took pictures of the motorcade during the assassination, and Linda K. Willis, Philip L. Willis' daughter; Buell Wesley Frazier, who drove Oswald home on the evening of November 21, and back to work on the morning of November 22; Joe Marshall Smith, Welcome Eugene Barnett, Eddy Raymond Walthers, James Thomas Tague, Emmett J. Hudson, and Edgar Leon Smith, Jr., who were present at the assassination scene; Perdue William Lawrence, a Dallas police captain who testified concerning the positioning of policemen along the motorcade route; Ronald G. Wittmus, a fingerprint expert with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; Robert A. Frazier, Cortlandt Cunningham, and Charles L. Killion, firearms identification experts with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; Robert Brock, Mary Brock, and Harold Russell, who were present in the vicinity of the Tippit crime scene; and David Goldstein, the owner of a firearms store in Dallas.

vii

Contents

ix

EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

1

Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy

TESTIMONY OF JOHNNY CALVIN BREWER

The testimony of Johnny Calvin Brewer was taken at 3:15 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Belin. Will you stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Brewer. I do.

Mr. Belin. Would you please state your name for the record?

Mr. Brewer. Johnny Calvin Brewer.

Mr. Belin. How old are you, Mr. Brewer?

Mr. Brewer. Twenty-two.

Mr. Belin. Where do you live?

Mr. Brewer. 512 North Lancaster, apartment 102.

Mr. Belin. What city and state?

Mr. Brewer. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. Belin. Were you born in Texas?

Mr. Brewer. Born in Miami, Okla.

Mr. Belin. In Oklahoma?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. When did you move to Texas?

Mr. Brewer. About 2 years after I was born. My father was foreman on a construction company and we moved to Texas.

Mr. Belin. Where did you go to school in Texas, please, sir?

Mr. Brewer. I went first year in Lockhart. The second year we moved to Houston, for a year, and we moved back to Lockhart, and I went there 10 years in Lockhart.

Mr. Belin. You graduated from high school?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Did you go to school after you graduated from high school?

Mr. Brewer. I went to Southwest Texas State Teachers College in San Marcos a year, and a year in Nixon Clay Business College in Austin.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Brewer. I got married and quit school and went to work for Hardy's Shoe Store. I—that was in September, and I got married in December. And I have been with them ever since.

Mr. Belin. When did you go to work for Hardy's Shoe Store?

Mr. Brewer. In September of 1961.

Mr. Belin. Do they assign you to any particular store?

Mr. Brewer. I worked at the Capital Plaza Shopping Center in Austin for about 10 months, and then they transferred me to Dallas and gave me a store down on Jefferson.

Mr. Belin. In Austin were you just a shoe salesman?

Mr. Brewer. I was assistant manager.

2 Mr. Belin. And they transferred you to a shop on Jefferson?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. In Dallas?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. What is the address of that shop in Dallas?

Mr. Brewer. 213 West Jefferson.

Mr. Belin. They made you the manager of that shop?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. How long have you been manager?

Mr. Brewer. Since August of 1962.

Mr. Belin. From August 1962 on?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Until the present time?

Mr. Brewer. Until the day I was made manager of the downtown store.

Mr. Belin. Today is the 2d of April, or the 3d?

Mr. Brewer. Second.

Mr. Belin. You were made manager of the Hardy's Downtown Shoe Store?

Mr. Brewer. Yes, sir. It wasn't April Fool's. I thought they were firing me, but it turned out they weren't.

Mr. Belin. Did he call you in yesterday to tell you?

Mr. Brewer. Day before yesterday and told me to get ready for an audit, that I would be going to town, if I wanted it, and I said yes.

Mr. Belin. Would this be considered a promotion?

Mr. Brewer. A better store, more volume, and make more money. It would be considered a promotion.

Mr. Belin. Any children at all, Mr. Brewer?

Mr. Brewer. No.

Mr. Belin. I want to take you back to November 22, 1963. This was the day that President Kennedy was assassinated. How did you find out about the assassination, Mr. Brewer?

Mr. Brewer. We were listening to a transistor radio there in the store, just listening to a regular radio program, and they broke in with the bulletin that the President had been shot. And from then, that is all there was. We listened to all of the events.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear over the radio that the President had died?

Mr. Brewer. I heard a rumor. They said that—one of the Secret Service men said that the President had died, and said that was just a rumor.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember hearing anything else over the radio concerning anything that happened that afternoon?

Mr. Brewer. Well, they kept reconstructing what had happened and what they had heard, and they talked about it in general. There wasn't too much to talk about. They didn't have all the facts, and just repeated them mostly. And they said a patrolman had been shot in Oak Cliff.

Mr. Belin. Is Oak Cliff the area in which your shoe store was located?

Mr. Brewer. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. All right, would you describe what happened after you heard on the radio that an officer had been shot?

Mr. Brewer. Well, there was heard a siren coming down East Jefferson headed toward West Jefferson.

Mr. Belin. What is the dividing street between East and West Jefferson?

Mr. Brewer. Beckley.

Mr. Belin. How far is Beckley from your store?

Mr. Brewer. Two blocks.

Mr. Belin. Two blocks to the east or to the west?

Mr. Brewer. There is Zangs to the east. The first street is Zangs and the next street is Beckley.

Mr. Belin. The first street east is Zangs Boulevard and the next street is Beckley?

Mr. Brewer. Yes, right.

Mr. Belin. Is your store located to the north or south side of Jefferson?

Mr. Brewer. On the north.

3 Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Brewer. I looked up and out towards the street and the police cars——

Mr. Belin. When you looked up, did you step out of the store at all?

Mr. Brewer. No; I was still in the store behind the counter, and I looked up and saw the man enter the lobby.

Mr. Belin. When you say the lobby of your store, first let me ask you to describe how is—how wide is your store, approximately?

Mr. Brewer. About 20 feet.

Mr. Belin. All right, is the entrance to your store right on the sidewalk?

Mr. Brewer. The entrance to the store is about 15 feet from the sidewalk, front doors.

Mr. Belin. The front doors?

Mr. Brewer. Yes; they are recessed, and then there is windows, show windows on each side.

Mr. Belin. This would be, if we were—if we would take a look at the letter "U," or see the letter "V," your doorway would be at the bottom part of the letter and the show cases would be at the sides of the letter, is that correct?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. What you call this lobby, that is the area between the sidewalk and your front door, is that correct?

Mr. Brewer. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. All right, you saw a man going into what you referred to as this lobby area?

Mr. Brewer. Yes; and he stood there with his back to the street.

Mr. Belin. When did he go in now? What did you hear at the time that he stepped into this lobby area?

Mr. Brewer. I heard the police cars coming up Jefferson, and he stepped in, and the police made a U-turn and went back down East Jefferson.

Mr. Belin. Where did he make the U-turn?

Mr. Brewer. At Zangs.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember the sirens going away?

Mr. Brewer. Yes; the sirens were going away. I presume back to where the officer had been shot, because it was back down that way. And when they turned and left, Oswald looked over his shoulder and turned around and walked up West Jefferson towards the theatre.

Mr. Belin. Let me hold you a minute. You used the word Oswald. Did you know who the man was at the time you saw him?

Mr. Brewer. No.

Mr. Belin. So at the time, you didn't know what his name was?

Mr. Brewer. No.

Mr. Belin. Will you describe the man you saw?

Mr. Brewer. He was a little man, about 5'9", and weighed about 150 pounds is all.

Mr. Belin. How tall are you, by the way?

Mr. Brewer. Six three.

Mr. Belin. So you say he was about 5'9"?

Mr. Brewer. About 5'9".

Mr. Belin. And about 150?

Mr. Brewer. And had brown hair. He had a brown sports shirt on. His shirt tail was out.

Mr. Belin. Any jacket?

Mr. Brewer. No.

Mr. Belin. What color of trousers, do you remember?

Mr. Brewer. I don't remember.

Mr. Belin. Light or dark?

Mr. Brewer. I don't remember that either.

Mr. Belin. Any other clothing that you noticed?

Mr. Brewer. He had a T-shirt underneath his shirt.

Mr. Belin. Was his shirt buttoned up all the way?

Mr. Brewer. A couple of buttons were unbuttoned at the time.

Mr. Belin. Light complexioned or dark?

Mr. Brewer. Light complexioned.

4 Mr. Belin. All right. After you saw him in the lobby of your store there, what you call a lobby area, which is really kind of an extension of the sidewalk, then you saw him leave?

Mr. Brewer. Yes, he turned and walked up toward——

Mr. Belin. Had the police sirens subsided at the time he turned, or not?

Mr. Brewer. No; you could still hear sirens.

Mr. Belin. Did they sound like they were coming toward you or going away?

Mr. Brewer. They were going away at that time.

Mr. Belin. Going the other way?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. How could you tell?

Mr. Brewer. They were getting further in the distance.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you see this man do?

Mr. Brewer. He turned and walked out of the lobby and went up West Jefferson toward the theatre, and I walked out the front and watched him, and he went into the theatre.

Mr. Belin. What theatre is that?

Mr. Brewer. Texas Theatre.

Mr. Belin. Why did you happen to watch this particular man?

Mr. Brewer. He just looked funny to me. Well, in the first place, I had seen him some place before. I think he had been in my store before. And when you wait on somebody, you recognize them, and he just seemed funny. His hair was sort of messed up and looked like he had been running, and he looked scared, and he looked funny.

Mr. Belin. Did you notice any of his actions when he was standing in your lobby there?

Mr. Brewer. No; he just stood there and stared.

Mr. Belin. He stared?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Was he looking at the merchandise?

Mr. Brewer. Not anything in particular. He was just standing there staring.

Mr. Belin. Well, would you state then what happened? You said that you saw him walk into the Texas Theatre?

Mr. Brewer. He walked into the Texas Theatre and I walked up to the theatre, to the box office and asked Mrs. Postal if she sold a ticket to a man who was wearing a brown shirt, and she said no, she hadn't. She was listening to the radio herself. And I said that a man walked in there, and I was going to go inside and ask the usher if he had seen him.

So I walked in and Butch Burroughs——

Mr. Belin. Who was Burroughs?

Mr. Brewer. He was behind the counter. He operated the concession and takes tickets. He was behind the concession stand and I asked him if he had seen a man in a brown shirt of that description, matching that description, and he said he had been working behind the counter and hadn't seen anybody.

And I asked him if he would come with me and show me where the exits were and we would check the exits. And he asked me why.

I told him that I thought the guy looked suspicious.

Mr. Belin. Could you tell whether or not he bought a ticket?

Mr. Brewer. No; he just turned and walked right straight in.

Mr. Belin. When he walked right straight in, could you see the box office?

Mr. Brewer. Well, the box office is right in the middle in front of the theatre, and he turned right at the corner and went in. You could see him if he was buying a ticket, because the box office is flush with all the other buildings.

Mr. Belin. If he had purchased a ticket, would you have seen him purchasing the ticket from where you were standing or walking?

Mr. Brewer. I could have seen him, yes; standing in front of the box office.

Mr. Belin. Then did you know when you saw him walk in and when you walked up to Julia Postal that he had not bought a ticket?

Mr. Brewer. I knew that he hadn't.

5 Mr. Belin. Why did you ask Julia Postal whether he had or hadn't?

Mr. Brewer. I don't know.

Mr. Belin. You just asked her?

Mr. Brewer. Just asked her whether he had bought or she had seen him go in.

Mr. Belin. She—did she say whether she had seen him, or don't you remember?

Mr. Brewer. She said she couldn't remember a man of that description going in.

Mr. Belin. All right. You saw this person Butch?

Mr. Brewer. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. You say he is the usher, too?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. What did you and Butch do?

Mr. Brewer. We walked down to the front of the theatre to the stage. First we checked the front exit, and it hadn't been opened. We went to the back and it hadn't been opened.

Mr. Belin. How could you tell that it hadn't been opened?

Mr. Brewer. Well, you open it from the inside, and you raise a bar, and a rod sticks into a hole at the bottom and then you open it. When you close it, it doesn't fall back in. You have to raise the rod again to close it from the inside.

Mr. Belin. In other words, you have to close it from the inside?

Mr. Brewer. You can close it from the outside, but it won't lock.

Mr. Belin. It was locked when you got there?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. So you knew that no one had left?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Brewer. We went back up front and went in the balcony and looked around but we couldn't see anything.

Mr. Belin. Now you first looked on the bottom floor and you did not see him?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. How many patrons were in the theatre at that time?

Mr. Brewer. I couldn't really tell. There weren't many, but it was dark and we couldn't see how many people were in there. There were 15 or 20. I would say, at the most, upstairs and downstairs.

Mr. Belin. Together, 15 or 20?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Then you went upstairs. Did you see him upstairs?

Mr. Brewer. No; I couldn't see anything upstairs.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear any noises there?

Mr. Brewer. When we first went down to the exit by the stage, we heard a seat pop up, but couldn't see anybody. And we never did see him.

But we went back and upstairs and checked, and we came down and went back to the box office and told Julia that we hadn't seen him.

Mr. Belin. Julia Postal is the cashier?

Mr. Brewer. Yes; and she called the police, and we went—Butch went to the front exit, and I went down by the stage to the back exit and stood there until the police came.

Mr. Belin. Then what happened?

Mr. Brewer. Well, just before they came, they turned the house lights on, and I looked out from the curtains and saw the man.

Mr. Belin. Where was he when you saw him?

Mr. Brewer. He was in the center section about six or seven rows, from the back, toward the back.

Mr. Belin. Toward the back? Are you sure? Mr. Brewer, do you know exactly which row he was in from the back?

Mr. Brewer. No; I don't know which row.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you see?

Mr. Brewer. He stood up and walked to the aisle to his right and then he turned around and walked back and sat down and at this time there was no place I could see.

6 Mr. Belin. Did he sit down in the same seat he had been in to begin with?

Mr. Brewer. I don't remember if it was the same seat or not.

Mr. Belin. Then what happened?

Mr. Brewer. I heard a noise outside, and I opened the door, and the alley, I guess it was filled with police cars and policemen were on the fire exits and stacked around the alley, and they grabbed me, a couple of them and held and searched me and asked me what I was doing there, and I told them that there was a guy in the theatre that I was suspicious of, and he asked me if he was still there.

And I said, yes, I just seen him. And he asked me if I would point him out.

And I and two or three other officers walked out on the stage and I pointed him out, and there were officers coming in from the front of the show, I guess, coming toward that way, and officers going from the back.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you see?

Mr. Brewer. Well, I saw this policeman approach Oswald, and Oswald stood up and I heard some hollering, I don't know exactly what he said, and this man hit Patrolman McDonald.

Mr. Belin. You say this man hit Patrolman McDonald. Did you know it was Patrolman McDonald?

Mr. Brewer. I didn't know his name, but I had seen him quite a few times around Oak Cliff. But I didn't know his name.

Mr. Belin. Then you later found out this was Patrolman McDonald?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Did you say this man was the same man?

Mr. Brewer. The same man that had stood in my lobby that I followed to the show.

Mr. Belin. Who hit who first?

Mr. Brewer. Oswald hit McDonald first, and he knocked him to the seat.

Mr. Belin. Who knocked who?

Mr. Brewer. He knocked McDonald down. McDonald fell against one of the seats. And then real quick he was back up.

Mr. Belin. When you say he was——

Mr. Brewer. McDonald was back up. He just knocked him down for a second and he was back up. And I jumped off the stage and was walking toward that, and I saw this gun come up and—in Oswald's hand, a gun up in the air.

Mr. Belin. Did you see from where the gun came?

Mr. Brewer. No.

Mr. Belin. You saw the gun up in the air?

Mr. Brewer. And somebody hollered "He's got a gun."

And there were a couple of officers fighting him and taking the gun away from him, and they took the gun from him, and he was fighting, still fighting, and I heard some of the police holler, I don't know who it was, "Kill the President, will you." And I saw fists flying and they were hitting him.

Mr. Belin. Was he fighting back at that time?

Mr. Brewer. Yes; he was fighting back.

Mr. Belin. Then what happened?

Mr. Brewer. Well, just in a short time they put the handcuffs on him and they took him out.

Mr. Belin. Did you see police officers hit him after they got the handcuffs on him?

Mr. Brewer. No; I didn't see them.

Mr. Belin. Did you see any police officer hit Oswald after Oswald stopped fighting?

Mr. Brewer. No.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear Oswald say anything?

Mr. Brewer. As they were taking him out, he stopped and turned around and hollered. "I am not resisting arrest," about twice. "I am not resisting arrest." And they took him on outside.

Mr. Belin. Then what happened?

Mr. Brewer. Well, then, the police officers and plainclothesmen, whoever they were, got everybody that was in the theatre and set them aside, and7 another officer was taking their names and addresses of all the people that were in the theatre.

Mr. Belin. When you first saw this man, when you saw him leave what you referred to as the lobby of your shoestore building, what is it, marble or concrete?

Mr. Brewer. Terrazzo.

Mr. Belin. Terrazzo between the sidewalk and your front door?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Where were you when you first saw him?

Mr. Brewer. I was behind the counter there by the hose bar.

Mr. Belin. About how far were you from the front door?

Mr. Brewer. Ten feet.

Mr. Belin. Could you see through there to get a good view?

Mr. Brewer. Yes; the doors are solid glass.

Mr. Belin. Then you saw this man leave?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Brewer. I went out the front door and stood in front of the store and watched him.

Mr. Belin. You stood in front of the door?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Where was he walking when you first saw him? As you got out in front of your store?

Mr. Brewer. He was, I would say, he was in front of the furniture store. What is the name of that?

Mr. Belin. Would that be Thompson's Furniture Store?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Did you know—notice how fast this man was walking?

Mr. Brewer. Just a little faster than usual.

Mr. Belin. Faster than usual walk?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Then about how far were you behind him?

Mr. Brewer. Well, I stood there until he walked into the theatre. I don't really know what I was thinking about.

Mr. Belin. You stood in front of your store as he walked into the theatre?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. About how far is the entrance of the theatre from your store?

Mr. Brewer. I would say 50 or 60 feet—yards.

Mr. Belin. Then after you saw him turn into the theatre, what did you do?

Mr. Brewer. Then I walked toward the theatre.

Mr. Belin. At an average pace, or above average?

Mr. Brewer. I don't know.

Mr. Belin. You don't remember? About how long after you got to the theatre did the police come in, if you can remember?

Mr. Brewer. I don't remember that either.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember about what time it was when the police came in?

Mr. Brewer. No.

Mr. Belin. Is there anything else you can think of that in any way bears on this?

Mr. Brewer. No.

Mr. Belin. Mr. Brewer, I am handing you what has been marked "Commission Exhibit 150," and ask you to state whether or not that looks like the shirt you saw the man wear?

Mr. Brewer. That looks like the shirt, yes.

Mr. Belin. Did you notice whether the man that wore it had any holes in the elbows at all, or not?

Mr. Brewer. I didn't notice.

Mr. Belin. But this Exhibit 150, looks like the shirt?

Mr. Brewer. It looks like the shirt.

Mr. Belin. Was he wearing a jacket? I believe you answered that before.

Mr. Brewer. No, he didn't have on a jacket.

8 Mr. Belin. Did you hear this man as he was in the theatre say anything other than "I am not resisting arrest."?

Mr. Brewer. No.

Mr. Belin. Did he say anything, or could you not understand it?

Mr. Brewer. He said something, but I couldn't understand what it was.

Mr. Belin. When he said, "I am not resisting arrest," was this before or after they had the handcuffs on him?

Mr. Brewer. After.

Mr. Belin. Mr. Brewer, you have the right, if you want, to come back and read this deposition and sign it, or you can just waive the signing of it and let the court reporter send it directly to us in Washington. Do you have any preference on it?

Mr. Brewer. No.

Mr. Belin. Do you want to waive it?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. We want to thank you for all of your cooperation on this. I might ask one other question. We chatted for a few minutes when we first met before we started taking this deposition, did we not?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Is there anything we talked there about that isn't recorded in this written testimony?

Mr. Brewer. No.

Mr. Belin. Is there anything you said which is different insofar as stating the facts and what you have stated here on the record?

Mr. Brewer. No.

Mr. Belin. When we first met, what is the fact as to whether or not I just asked you to tell your story, or whether or not I tried to tell you what I thought the story was?

Mr. Brewer. You asked me to tell the story first.

Mr. Belin. Is that what you did?

Mr. Brewer. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Anything else you can think of?

Mr. Brewer. No.

Mr. Belin. Please thank Hardy's Shoe Store for us for letting you take the time to be here. We thank you very much.

Mr. Brewer. Okay.

TESTIMONY OF JULIA POSTAL

The testimony of Julia Postal was taken at 3 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Ball. Will you stand and hold up your hand, please and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. Postal. I do.

Mr. Ball. Will you state your name, please?

Mrs. Postal. Julia Postal.

Mr. Ball. What is your address, please?

Mrs. Postal. 2728 Seevers.

Mr. Ball. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and what your education was, what your occupation has been, just in general.

Mrs. Postal. Was born here in Dallas and I went through all school here to my first year at Adamson, and went to California and finished up out there.

Mr. Ball. Finished high school there?

Mrs. Postal. Went through 4 years of it.

Mr. Ball. In California?

9 Mrs. Postal. In California, and then I lived there for 12 years and came back here. I have been here ever since.

Mr. Ball. What has been your occupation?

Mrs. Postal. Well, basically it has been theatre, cashier, and officework in connection with theatres.

Mr. Ball. You have been to California? Did you work in theatres there?

Mrs. Postal. Yes, sir; I worked at the Paramount Theatre, and Graumans, and R.K.O. Used to work for the Pantages. Worked for the Wilshire in the office.

Mr. Ball. How long have you been back from California, to Dallas?

Mrs. Postal. Oh, me, I have been there 11 years, 14 or 15 years; really, I don't remember.

Mr. Ball. Have you been working? You are now working where?

Mrs. Postal. With the Texas—really, it is United Theatres, Inc., at the Texas Theatre.

Mr. Ball. How long have you been working there?

Mrs. Postal. It was 11 years last November 24.

Mr. Ball. Same theatre?

Mrs. Postal. Same theatre.

Mr. Ball. What were your hours of work last fall?

Mrs. Postal. Last fall? Well, let's see, I worked in the office, and then started cutting down personnel and I worked in the office until they opened the box office at 12:45, and then come down to the box office and worked until 5.

Mr. Ball. When you say worked in the box office, is that take tickets?

Mrs. Postal. Sell tickets.

Mr. Ball. Sell tickets. Is there a ticket taker inside the theatre?

Mrs. Postal. Yes, sir; now, during the slack period like this with school, just an usher who works the concession and tears the tickets, because it is just straight through.

Mr. Ball. On November 22, Friday, November 22, 1963, what time did your box office open?

Mrs. Postal. We open daily at 12:45, sometimes may be 5, 4 minutes later or something, but that is our regular hours.

Mr. Ball. On this day you opened on 12:45, November 22?

Mrs. Postal. Uh-huh.

Mr. Ball. And on that day, did you have the ticket taker working around 12:45, 1 o'clock?

Mrs. Postal. Just the usher, which, as I said, works the concession and ticket.

Mr. Ball. What was his name?

Mrs. Postal. Warren Burroughs. Call him Butch.

Mr. Ball. Butch Burroughs?

Mrs. Postal. Uh-huh.

Mr. Ball. Was he stationed inside the door, the entrance to the theatre?

Mrs. Postal. Yes, sir; he stays, actually, behind the concession counter, but as I said, the concession runs for the entire way as you go in the door and it runs this way so that you can see the door and steps insides, and tears tickets.

Mr. Ball. Now, did you have a radio in your ticket office?

Mrs. Postal. Uh-huh, a transistor.

Mr. Ball. Had you heard that the President had been shot?

Mrs. Postal. Yes; my daughter had called me at the office before we opened up and said it was on the TV, so I then turned the little transistor on right away, and of course it verified the—they were saying again that he had been shot.

Mr. Ball. And did you find out that he had died here? That President Kennedy was dead or——

Mrs. Postal. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. You didn't hear that?

Mrs. Postal. I was listening to KLIF, and I was down in the little box office, and they kept saying that Parkland hadn't issued an official report, that he had been removed from the operating table, and everyone wanted to surmise, but still hope, and it was after this that they came out and said that he was officially dead.

10 Mr. Ball. But, you didn't hear that when you were in the box office, did you?

Mrs. Postal. Yes, I did. In fact, I was just about—it was just about the time all chaos broke loose.

Mr. Ball. Now, did many people go into the theatre from the time you opened at the box office until about 1:15 or so?

Mrs. Postal. Some.

Mr. Ball. How many? Can you give me an estimate?

Mrs. Postal. I believe 24.

Mr. Ball. Twenty-four?

Mrs. Postal. Fourteen or twenty-four. I believe it was 24. Everything was happening so fast.

Mr. Ball. You had sold about that many tickets?

Mrs. Postal. That's right.

Mr. Ball. What was the price of admission?

Mrs. Postal. We had three. Adults 90 cents, teenager with a card is 50 cents, and a child is 35, and you have a pass ticket.

Mr. Ball. It is cheaper that time of day than other times of day?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir; we don't change prices. Used to, but we don't.

Mr. Ball. Same price?

Mrs. Postal. Uh-huh.

Mr. Ball. Now, did you see anybody go in the theatre—well, did you see any activity on the street?

Mrs. Postal. Now, yes, sir; just about the time we opened, my employer had stayed and took the tickets because we change pictures on Thursday and want to do anything, he—and about this time I heard the sirens—police was racing back and forth.

Mr. Ball. On Jefferson?

Mrs. Postal. On Jefferson Boulevard, and then we made the remark, "Something is about to bust," or "pop," or something to that effect, so, it was just about—some sirens were going west, and my employer got in his car. He was parked in front, to go up to see where they were going. He, perhaps I said, he passed Oswald. At that time I didn't know it was Oswald. Had to bypass him, because as he went through this way, Oswald went through this way and ducked into the theatre there.

Mr. Ball. Let me see. Had you ever seen this man before then at that particular theatre?

Mrs. Postal. Not that I know of, huh-uh.

Mr. Ball. A police car had gone by just before this?

Mrs. Postal. Yes, sir; going west.

Mr. Ball. Its siren on?

Mrs. Postal. Yes; full blast.

Mr. Ball. And after you saw the police car go west with its siren on, why at the time the police car went west with its siren on, did you see the man that ducked? This man that you were——

Mrs. Postal. This man, yes; he ducked into the box office and—I don't know if you are familiar with the theatre.

Mr. Ball. Yes; I have seen the theatre.

Mrs. Postal. You have? Well, he was coming from east going west. In other words, he ducked right in.

Mr. Ball. Ducked in, what do you mean? He had come around the corner——

Mrs. Postal. Yes; and when the sirens went by he had a panicked look on his face, and he ducked in.

Mr. Ball. Now, as the car went by, you say the man ducked in, had you seen him before the car went by, the police went by?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir; I was looking up, as I say, when the cars passed, as you know, they make a tremendous noise, and he ducked in as my boss went that way to get in his car.

Mr. Ball. Who is your boss?

Mrs. Postal. Mr. John A. Callahan.

Mr. Ball. Where did you say he was?

Mrs. Postal. Yes; I say, they bypassed each other, actually, the man ducked in this way and my employer went that-a-way, to get in his car.

11 Mr. Ball. When you say "ducked in," you mean he entered the door from the street?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir; just ducked into the other—into the outer part of it.

Mr. Ball. I see, out in the open space?

Mrs. Postal. Yes, sir; just right around the corner.

Mr. Ball. Just right around the corner?

Mrs. Postal. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And your boss passed him, did he?

Mrs. Postal. Yes; they went—one came one way, and one went the other way just at the same time.

Mr. Ball. What did you see him do after he came around the corner?

Mrs. Postal. Well, I didn't actually—because I stepped out of the box office and went to the front and was facing west. I was right at the box office facing west, because I thought the police were stopping up quite a ways. Well, just as I turned around then Johnny Brewer was standing there and he asked me if the fellow that ducked in bought a ticket, and I said, "No; by golly, he didn't," and turned around expecting to see him.

Mr. Ball. And he had ducked in?

Mrs. Postal. And Mr. Brewer said he had been ducking in at his place of business, and he had gone by me, because I was facing west, and I said, "Go in and see if you can see him," it isn't too much people in there. So, he came and says, well, he didn't see him, and I says, "Well, he has to be there." So I told him to go back and check—we have exit doors, behind—one behind the stage and one straight through, and asked him to check them, check the lounges because I knew he was in there. Well, he just had to be.

Mr. Ball. The last time you had seen him before he ducked in, he was just standing outside of the door, was he?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir; he was still just in—just off of the sidewalk, and he headed for the theatre.

Mr. Ball. Were the doors of the theatre open?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. It was closed?

Mrs. Postal. It was closed.

Mr. Ball. And you didn't see him actually enter the theatre then?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. You hadn't seen him go by you?

Mrs. Postal. I knew he didn't go by me, because I was facing west, and Johnny, he had come up from east which meant he didn't go back that way. He had come from east going west.

Mr. Ball. All right, now what happened after that?

Mrs. Postal. Well, I, like—I told him—asked him to check everything.

Mr. Ball. Did you ask Butch Burroughs if he had seen him?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir; I told Johnny this, don't tell him, because he is an excitable person, and just have him, you know, go with you and examine the exits and check real good, so, he came back and said he hadn't seen anything although, he had heard a seat pop up like somebody getting out, but there was nobody around that area, so, I told Johnny about the fact that the President had been assassinated. "I don't know if this is the man they want," I said, "in there, but he is running from them for some reason," and I said "I am going to call the police, and you and Butch go get on each of the exit doors and stay there."

So, well, I called the police, and he wanted to know why I thought it was their man, and I said, "Well, I didn't know," and he said, "Well, it fits the description," and I have not—I said I hadn't heard the description. All I know is, "This man is running from them for some reason." And he wanted to know why, and told him because everytime the sirens go by he would duck and he wanted to know—well, if he fits the description is what he says. I said, "Let me tell you what he looks like and you take it from there." And explained that he had on this brown sports shirt and I couldn't tell you what design it was, and medium height, ruddy looking to me, and he said, "Thank you," and I called the operator and asked him to look through the little hole and see if he could see anything and told him I had called the police, and what was happening, and12 he wanted to know if I wanted him to cut the picture off, and I says, "No, let's wait until they get here." So, seemed like I hung up the intercom phone when here all of a sudden, police cars, policemen, plainclothesmen, I never saw so many people in my life. And they raced in, and the next thing I knew, they were carrying—well, that is when I first heard Officer Tippit had been shot because some officer came in the box office and used the phone, said, "I think we have got our man on both accounts." "What two accounts?" And said, "Well, Officer Tippit's," shocked me, because Officer Tippit used to work part time for us years ago. I didn't know him personally.

Mr. Ball. You mean he guarded the theatre?

Mrs. Postal. On Friday nights and Saturdays, canvass the theatre, you know, and that—then they were bringing Oswald out the door over there and——

Mr. Ball. Well, now, was this before they had gone into the theatre that this officer used the phone?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. It was after?

Mrs. Postal. There was not one man walked through this theatre. They were running.

Mr. Ball. Did the officers go in the front of the theatre?

Mrs. Postal. Yes. Definitely.

Mr. Ball. Did you go in?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir; I stayed at the box office.

Mr. Ball. You didn't see anything that happened inside?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you see them bring a man out?

Mrs. Postal. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. How many men had hold of him?

Mrs. Postal. Well, I—like I said, the public was getting there at that time, and the streets, sidewalk and around the streets and everything and they brought him out the double doors here [indicating]. I remember, the officer had his hands behind him with his chin back like this [indicating] because I understand he had been using some profuse (sic) language which—inside. I'd say four or five.

Mr. Ball. Was he handcuffed?

Mrs. Postal. I don't know, sir, because the officers were all around him and from the rear there and his hands were to his back.

Mr. Ball. They were?

Mrs. Postal. Uh-huh.

Mr. Ball. And an officer had hold of him from the side?

Mrs. Postal. Yes, sir; this way.

Mr. Ball. With his arm underneath his chin?

Mrs. Postal. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did he have any bruises or cuts? Did Oswald have any bruises or cuts on his face?

Mrs. Postal. No.

Mr. Ball. You didn't see any?

Mrs. Postal. No; huh-uh.

Mr. Ball. Was he saying anything?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir; as I said, that was my understanding, that is the reason that they had him like that, because he was screaming.

Mr. Ball. But, you didn't hear him say anything?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir. He couldn't possibly say anything the way they had him.

Mr. Ball. What happened then?

Mrs. Postal. That is when I really started shaking. I had never seen a live mob scene, that——

Mr. Ball. Well——

Mrs. Postal. They said, "What is going on?" And someone said, "Suspect," and they started in this way, just about that time I got out to the box office, back to the box office, and they started screaming profuse language and—"Kill the so-and-so," and trying to get to him, and this and that and the officers were trying to hold on to Oswald—when I say, "Oswald," that man, because as I said, I13 didn't know who he was at that time and they was trying to hold him, because he was putting up a struggle, and then trying to keep the public off, and on the way to the car, parked right out front, one of the officers was—at that time I thought he was putting his hat on the man's face to try to keep the public from grabbing him by the hair, but I later read in the paper it was to cover his face and then he got him in the car, and all bedlam, so far as the public, broke.

Mr. Ball. They drove away with him, did they?

Mrs. Postal. Yes, sir; that one car did; uh-huh.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever go down to the police station?

Mrs. Postal. Police station?

Mr. Ball. Yes; later the city hall or police office?

Mrs. Postal. Yes; I went down to the homicidal bureau.

Mr. Ball. When?

Mrs. Postal. Well, let's see, that was a Friday. I believe it was the Thursday following.

Mr. Ball. You didn't go down there that day?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you go down there the next day?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. According to your affidavit, it shows that you signed it on the 4th of December. Would that be about right?

Mrs. Postal. Was that on Thursday?

Mr. Ball. Yes; I think.

Mrs. Postal. I can't remember. I think it was a Thursday.

Mr. Ball. That was after Oswald was dead?

Mrs. Postal. Yes; well, yes; because he was killed on the 24th, yes; because I know I didn't go down until the following week.

Mr. Ball. Now, was it after Oswald, the man brought out on—out of the theatre was taken away in the car that the officer called and said, "I'm sure we have got our man——"?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir; that officer came out of the theatre and grabbed at the phone and made the call about simultaneously as they were bringing Oswald out.

Mr. Ball. And that was when you heard that Officer Tippit had been shot?

Mrs. Postal. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Why didn't Warren Burroughs see him get in, get in there? Do you have any idea?

Mrs. Postal. We talked about that, and the concession stand is along here, and if he came in on the other end, which we summarized that is what Oswald did, because the steps, immediately as you open the door there. It has been done before with kids trying to sneak in, run right on up in the balcony.

Mr. Ball. You asked Warren Burroughs why he didn't see him, did you?

Mrs. Postal. Yes; we kidded him quite a bit anyway, because some people do then get by him.

Mr. Ball. What did he say?

Mrs. Postal. Ah, he said at first that he had seen him, and I says, "Now, Butch, if you saw him come in—" says, "Well, I saw him going out." But he didn't really see him. So, he just summarized that he ran up in the balcony, because if he had come through the foyer, Butch would have seen him.

Mr. Ball. He was arrested, though, down in the orchestra, the second row from the——

Mrs. Postal. Third.

Mr. Ball. Third?

Mrs. Postal. Three rows down, five seats over.

Mr. Ball. I was trying to say the third row. How could he get from the balcony down there?

Mrs. Postal. Oh, that is very easy. You can go up in the balcony and right straight down, those steps come back down, and that would bring you into it. He wouldn't have to go by Butch at all.

Mr. Ball. Oh, I see. And he could get into the balcony without Butch's seeing him?

Mrs. Postal. Yes; if Butch was down in the other end getting something.

14 Mr. Ball. And he could go in?

Mrs. Postal. He could have gotten in.

Mr. Ball. All right. I show you an Exhibit 150, a shirt. Does that look anything like the shirt he had on?

Mrs. Postal. Yes, it was something like this shirt. I couldn't say it is the same except it was brown and it was hanging out.

Mr. Ball. Outside his pants?

Mrs. Postal. Uh-huh.

Mr. Ball. Wasn't tucked into his pants?

Mrs. Postal. Huh-uh.

Mr. Ball. When he went in was it tucked in his pants when he went in?

Mrs. Postal. No, sir; because I remember he came flying around the corner, because his hair was and shirt was kind of waving.

Mr. Ball. And his shirt was out?

Mrs. Postal. Uh-huh.

Mr. Ball. You say——

Mrs. Postal. It was hanging out.

Mr. Ball. Mrs. Postal, this will be written up and you can read it and sign it if you wish, or you can waive signature and we will send it on to the Commission without your signature. Now, how do you feel about it? Do you want to do that?

Mrs. Postal. I don't know. I mean, this is all new to me anyway.

Mr. Ball. Would you just as leave waive your signature?

Mrs. Postal. Well, I see no reason why not.

Mr. Ball. Okay. Fine.

Then you don't have to come down and sign it. We will send it without your signature. Thank you, very much for coming in.

TESTIMONY OF WARREN H. BURROUGHS

The testimony of Warren H. Burroughs was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Ball. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. State your name for the record, please.

Mr. Burroughs. Warren H. Burroughs.

Mr. Ball. Where do you live, Mr. Burroughs?

Mr. Burroughs. 407 Montreal.

Mr. Ball. Where were you born?

Mr. Burroughs. Dallas.

Mr. Ball. Where did you go to school?

Mr. Burroughs. Well, I'm going to private school 2 days a week. I stopped going to public school in the ninth grade.

Mr. Ball. You quit in the ninth grade?

Mr. Burroughs. I stopped in the ninth grade, but I'm going to private school 2 days a week over in Highland Park.

Mr. Ball. You are now?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes; I am now.

Mr. Ball. How old are you?

Mr. Burroughs. Twenty-two.

Mr. Ball. What have you been doing most of your life—what kind of work have you been doing?

Mr. Burroughs. I worked at the Texas Theatre and I helped my dad out as an apprentice, he is an electrician.

15 Mr. Ball. Were you ever in the Army?

Mr. Burroughs. No, sir—they tried to get me, but I couldn't pass—I passed the physical part, but the mental part—I didn't make enough points on the score, so the board sent me a card back and classifying me different.

Mr. Ball. On November 22, 1963, you were working at the Texas Theatre, were you?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What kind of job did you have?

Mr. Burroughs. During the week I worked behind the concession. On weekends I usher.

Mr. Ball. On weekends you usher?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. During the week?

Mr. Burroughs. I am behind the concession.

Mr. Ball. During the afternoon of the week—do you take tickets too?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes—I take tickets every day.

Mr. Ball. You do?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And, run the concession?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes.

Mr. Ball. If anybody comes in there without a ticket, what do you do, run them off?

Mr. Burroughs. I make it a point to stop them and ask them to go out and get a ticket. I just failed to see him when he slipped in.

Mr. Ball. We will get to that in a minute—I want to see what you usually do if somebody comes in without a ticket.

Mr. Burroughs. I stop them and have them go out to the box office and get an admission ticket.

Mr. Ball. On this day of November 22, 1963, what time did you go to work?

Mr. Burroughs. I went to work at 12.

Mr. Ball. You went to work that day at 12?

Mr. Burroughs. That day at 12 o'clock—yes.

Mr. Ball. And you later saw a struggle in the theatre between a man and some officers, didn't you?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Did you see that man come in the theatre?

Mr. Burroughs. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. Do you have any idea what you were doing when he came in?

Mr. Burroughs. Well, I was—I had a lot of stock candy to count and put in the candy case for the coming night, and if he had came around in front of the concession out there, I would have seen him, even though I was bent down, I would have seen him, but otherwise—I think he sneaked up the stairs real fast.

Mr. Ball. Up to the balcony?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes, sir—first, I think he was up there.

Mr. Ball. At least there was a stairway there?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes, there was two.

Mr. Ball. Is there a stairway near the entry?

Mr. Burroughs. Of the door—yes. Yes, it goes straight—you come through the door and go straight—you go upstairs to the balcony.

Mr. Ball. Did anybody come in there that day? Up to the time of the struggle between the man and the police—who didn't have a ticket?

Mr. Burroughs. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Later on the police came in your place?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes.

Mr. Ball. They asked you if you had seen a man come in there without a ticket?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes.

Mr. Ball. What did you tell him?

Mr. Burroughs. I said, "I haven't seen him myself. He might have, but I16 didn't see him when he came in. He must have sneaked in and run on upstairs before I saw him."

Mr. Ball. Later on, did somebody point out a man in the theatre to you?

Mr. Burroughs. No—I got information that a man—the police were cruising up and down Jefferson hunting for Oswald, and he ran to a shoestore and then came out and came on up to the Texas, and the man came in and told me that a man fitting that description came in the show and he wanted me to help him find him, and we went and checked the exit doors, he was up in the balcony, I imagine, and then we went back out and the police caught him downstairs.

Mr. Ball. You went to check the exit doors?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes.

Mr. Ball. With the shoe salesman?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And were the police out at the exit doors?

Mr. Burroughs. They came on—somehow they came in—one came in through the back and the rest of them came in through the front.

Mr. Ball. Did you see them come in through the back when you were back there?

Mr. Burroughs. I saw one of them.

Mr. Ball. The exit doors you are talking about were in the back or in the front?

Mr. Burroughs. They are at the back—they have one main one going out to the alley and they have one down here by the stage going out to the parking lot, and the other two are upstairs.

Mr. Ball. Did you see any struggle or fight between this man and any police officer?

Mr. Burroughs. No; not exactly, because I just had one door open and that was the middle door, and I couldn't see them—that was the main thing.

Mr. Ball. Where were you?

Mr. Burroughs. I was back behind the concession.

Mr. Ball. How do you get from the exit door in the rear of the theatre to behind the concession?

Mr. Burroughs. Well, the concession is right here [indicating] and the doors are right here, and the theatre is inside, and exit door No. 1 is straight down this way and another one is straight down this way.

Mr. Ball. Tell me what you did after you went to the exit door with the shoe salesman; what did you do?

Mr. Burroughs. Well, he went down to this door and I stayed at this door.

Mr. Ball. You mean at the rear of the theatre?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes—he went down to the rear of the theatre, and I stayed at this door in case he went out one of the exit doors.

Mr. Ball. You stayed there, did you?

Mr. Burroughs. I stayed there for about 5 minutes and I came back out to the concession.

Mr. Ball. Down the main aisle?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Were there police in there at that time?

Mr. Burroughs. They were in there checking to see where he was.

Mr. Ball. Was there any struggle going on when you came back from the exit door to the concession?

Mr. Burroughs. No.

Mr. Ball. There was not?

Mr. Burroughs. No.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear or see any trouble between this man and the police?

Mr. Burroughs. Well, I heard a struggle from outside, but I really couldn't tell.

Mr. Ball. What did you hear?

Mr. Burroughs. Well, I couldn't hear anything on the inside, but when they brought him out, he was hollering and raising, "I demand my rights," and all that.

Mr. Ball. What else did you hear?

17 Mr. Burroughs. That's about all.

Mr. Ball. Tell me what his appearance was as they brought him out?

Mr. Burroughs. Well, he didn't seem—he seemed like he was mad at everybody.

Mr. Ball. He was?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Did he shout in a loud voice?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes; like—"I demand my rights" [witness holding up both hands above his head.]

Mr. Ball. Anything else?

Mr. Burroughs. Well, they carried him out to the car and there was a mob of people out there—more people than I have ever seen before and they put him in the car and went off.

Mr. Ball. How many officers were with him? When you saw them take him from the theatre?

Mr. Burroughs. I believe about three or four.

Mr. Ball. Did any of them have ahold of him?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes; they had ahold of him—they were dragging him out—I mean they had ahold of him—two on each side.

Mr. Ball. Was he walking or were they dragging him?

Mr. Burroughs. He was walking, but he was kind of urged on out the door into the car.

Mr. Ball. Was he handcuffed?

Mr. Burroughs. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Were his hands behind him or in front of him?

Mr. Burroughs. They were behind him.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever see a police officer strike him?

Mr. Burroughs. No.

Mr. Ball. Did you see a police officer with his arm around the neck of this man, who arrested him?

Mr. Burroughs. I don't believe so.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever see a police officer strike this man with the butt of a shotgun?

Mr. Burroughs. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Were any of the officers in the theatre armed with shotguns?

Mr. Burroughs. No, sir; I don't believe so.

Mr. Ball. I think that's all, Mr. Burroughs, and this will be written up and you can go down and sign it if you wish, or you can waive your signature right now. Which do you prefer?

Mr. Burroughs. I want to come down and sign it.

Mr. Ball. All right. You will be notified to come down and you can read it over and sign it. Thank you very much for coming down here.

Mr. Burroughs. Thank you. I hope I helped you some.

Mr. Ball. Yes; I hope you did, too.

Mr. Burroughs. I'll see you later.

Mr. Ball. All right. Goodby.

TESTIMONY OF BOB K. CARROLL

The testimony of Bob K. Carroll was taken at 9 a.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Ball. Mr. Carroll, would you stand up please and take the oath.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Carroll. I do.

18 Mr. Ball. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. Carroll. Bob K. Carroll.

Mr. Ball. And what is your residence address?

Mr. Carroll. 814 Redbud, Duncanville, Tex.

Mr. Ball. And what is your occupation?

Mr. Carroll. Detective, Dallas Police Department.

Mr. Ball. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. Carroll. Ten years and three months.

Mr. Ball. Tell me something about yourself? Where were you born?

Mr. Carroll. I was born here in Dallas.

Mr. Ball. Where did you go to school?

Mr. Carroll. Sunset High.

Mr. Ball. And did you go beyond high school?

Mr. Carroll. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did you do after you got out of high school?

Mr. Carroll. Actually, I quit high school in 1947 and went to work at Vitalic Battery Co. [spelling] V-i-t-a-l-i-c. I worked there off and on, sometimes I believe during the seasonal layoffs and I would go back when they started rehiring, and I worked there until I went on active duty with the Marine Corps March 1, 1952, and I was released from active duty in May of 1953, and when I returned to Dallas I went to work for James A. Lewis Engineering Co., and I worked for them for approximately 18 months and then I worked 2 months for the Texas Highway Department on a survey crew, and then I joined the Dallas Police Department.

Since I have been in the Dallas Police Department, I have worked the radio and patrol divisions, the accident prevention bureau and the special service bureau. While assigned to the special service bureau, I worked with the narcotics section, the criminal intelligence section and the vice section and the administrative section.

Mr. Ball. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. Ball. What were your hours of work that day?

Mr. Carroll. We were instructed to be in the assembly room at 10 a.m. for briefing prior to the arrival of President Kennedy, and at that time I was in the assembly room at 8 a.m.

Mr. Ball. What job was assigned to you that day?

Mr. Carroll. I was assigned to the 700 block of Main Street.

Mr. Ball. Along the curb—did you stand along the sidewalk?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir; to be there, and, of course, there were uniform officers also assigned in that block, but I think they had one detective for each block.

Mr. Ball. How far is 700 Main Street from Houston and Main?

Mr. Carroll. That would be roughly about three blocks—three or four blocks, maybe.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear the sound of any shots?

Mr. Carroll. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Ball. When did you first hear that the President had been shot?

Mr. Carroll. I had walked around to a tavern around the corner. I was walking down the street and I passed this person I know and I stepped in this tavern to speak to him and I heard it—they turned on the TV just as I walked in the door and I heard it on the TV set.

Mr. Ball. What did you do then?

Mr. Carroll. I left and went to the office, and when I got to the office I called the dispatcher and they told me to go to the scene and I left the office and went to the garage, which is two blocks from city hall and got a car and reported to the School Book Depository.

Mr. Ball. About what time did you get to the School Book Depository?

Mr. Carroll. Let's see—approximately—let's see, the shooting occurred—it was 12:30, I believe, it was approximately 1 o'clock—maybe a little before, but right around 1 o'clock, and after I got to the Depository, they started organizing search details and I was assigned to search the basement. Well, I went19 into the basement and we determined that we needed some light in the basement, so I came back upstairs to get some lights, and when I got upstairs I heard that an officer had been shot in Oak Cliff, and no one had any information on it and the people I talked to had no information, so I got on the phone, and I called the dispatcher's office. The dispatcher stated it was Officer Tippit who was shot and he was dead, and so when I come back out of the office where I had used the phone, I requested permission to go to Oak Cliff and permission was granted and I took K. E. Lyons, and he and I left for Oak Cliff.

Mr. Ball. Is K. E. Lyons a detective?

Mr. Carroll. He is a patrolman assigned to the special service bureau. He doesn't work in uniform.

Mr. Ball. He works in plain clothes?

Mr. Carroll. He works in plain clothes, but his rank is patrolman, but we were in the 300 block of East Jefferson when the call came out on the radio that a suspect had been seen going into the Texas Theatre. We went immediately to the Texas Theatre, which is about five blocks away—I think it is in the 200 block of West Jefferson, and ourselves and the radio patrol unit were the first units to arrive at the theatre, and we pulled to the curb and parked directly in front of the entrance to the theatre, and the radio patrol car pulled into the head-in parking behind us. When Lyons and I went in, a lady that was in the theatre—I don't know who she was—she said he was upstairs, and that was all the conversation I heard from her.

Mr. Ball. Do you know who the lady was?

Mr. Carroll. No, sir; I have no idea.

Mr. Ball. Was it the girl who sells tickets?

Mr. Carroll. I don't know, sir, whether it was or not.

Mr. Ball. Have you ever met Julia Postal?

Mr. Carroll. No, sir; I never have.

Mr. Ball. And where was the lady when you talked to her?

Mr. Carroll. I didn't actually talk to her, sir, but when we went through the door, she just more or less—she just made a statement that he was upstairs, and as far as having any direct conversation with her, we did not. She said upstairs and we immediately went up to the balcony. All of the house lights were turned on.

Mr. Ball. You and Lyons went in the front door then?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir; and we went into the balcony and we had—or rather I had satisfied myself with the fact that he wasn't in the balcony.

Mr. Ball. Was there anyone in the balcony?

Mr. Carroll. Well, there were people sitting around there.

Mr. Ball. How did you satisfy yourself that he was in the balcony?

Mr. Carroll. Well, we went in and had more or less a vague idea—well, the people that I saw up in the balcony were either real young or older people and so we started back down——

Mr. Ball. Had you had a description of the man you were looking for?

Mr. Carroll. They gave me a vague one on the telephone when I called and checked about the officer.

Mr. Ball. Who are "they"?

Mr. Carroll. Whoever was on duty at the dispatcher's office—I don't know who it was at that time.

Mr. Ball. What was the description that he gave you?

Mr. Carroll. He just gave a general height description and age—just generally.

Mr. Ball. Tell me what he said.

Mr. Carroll. I'm trying to recall now exactly—he gave the height and I can't recall now exactly how he said it—it's been so long ago, and it was all—I know he gave roughly, just a rough description. It wasn't a detailed description at all, and I'm trying to remember now exactly how he worded it.

Mr. Ball. Can you give me the approximate age—around?

Mr. Carroll. I believe he said he was between 20 or 25 or something, like that, I'm not quite sure, because everything moved real fast and everything like that.

20 Mr. Ball. And you don't have anything from which you can refresh your memory, I suppose?

Mr. Carroll. No, sir; not as to that.

Mr. Ball. You didn't make a note of it?

Mr. Carroll. It was just strictly a telephone conversation—no, sir.

Mr. Ball. At any rate, when you looked at the balcony, did you see anyone who fitted this vague description that had been given you over the telephone by the dispatcher?

Mr. Carroll. Not that I thought fit it.

Mr. Ball. What did you do then?

Mr. Carroll. Well, I started down the stairs and was going back down to the lower floor when I heard someone holler something—I believe it was "Here he is," or something like that. I mean, it was a loud holler, you could tell it wasn't just someone talking, and I started running, and Lyons fell—he sprained his ankle—and I started running and I came up to the right of Oswald. I came up to the right and Sergeant Hill to the left, and then Ray Hawkins was in the aisle behind him—he come up in the aisle behind from the left.

Mr. Ball. You came from the left aisle, did you, down the row of seats?

Mr. Carroll. No, sir; facing the screen, I came from the right aisle and then come up on Oswald's right.

Mr. Ball. Who came from Oswald's left, facing the screen?

Mr. Carroll. Jerry Hill—Sgt. Jerry Hill.

Mr. Ball. And then, who came from behind?

Mr. Carroll. Ray Hawkins.

Mr. Ball. Where were you when you heard the sound "I've got him"?

Mr. Carroll. Just coming off of the stairs from the balcony.

Mr. Ball. And you ran to the orchestra entrance—did you—to the aisle?

Mr. Carroll. To the aisle from the lobby—you come downstairs into the lower lobby and the aisles lead off the lower lobby, and I come through the lobby and he was sitting rather close, I don't know exactly which row of seats it was, but it was back close to the back of the theatre.

Mr. Ball. And how many seats in from the right aisle, as you faced the screen?

Mr. Carroll. It was approximately—close to the center of the second bunch of seats.

Mr. Ball. What did you see when you came into the entrance to the aisle?

Mr. Carroll. I saw standing up at the time—Oswald was standing up there at that time. Several of us were converging at the same time upon him.

Mr. Ball. Where was McDonald?

Mr. Carroll. He was on Oswald's, let me see, the first time I think I saw Nick was, I believe he was on Oswald's right side.

Mr. Ball. Were they struggling?

Mr. Carroll. Everyone was struggling with him—yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. I mean, were Oswald and McDonald struggling together?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir; and then when I got up close enough, I saw a pistol pointing at me so I reached and grabbed the pistol and jerked the pistol away and stuck it in my belt, and then I grabbed Oswald.

Mr. Ball. Who had hold of that pistol at that time?

Mr. Carroll. I don't know, sir. I just saw the pistol pointing at me and I grabbed it and jerked it away from whoever had it and that's all, and by that time then the handcuffs were put on Oswald.

Mr. Ball. Who put them on him?

Mr. Carroll. I'm not sure who actually put the handcuffs on—I think it was Ray Hawkins.

Mr. Ball. Put them on from behind?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did——

Mr. Carroll. They were behind him.

Mr. Ball. Did you see anybody strike Oswald with his fist?

Mr. Carroll. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. Ball. We had one witness testify yesterday that he saw a man with a shotgun strike Oswald in the back with the butt of the gun; did you see that?

21 Mr. Carroll. No, sir; I didn't see that.

Mr. Ball. Did you see anybody strike him?

Mr. Carroll. I didn't see anybody strike him—it's possible that someone did, but I didn't see it because I was busy just trying to get him.

Mr. Ball. Did you grab some part of Oswald?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir; I grabbed him.

Mr. Ball. Where?

Mr. Carroll. It was below his shoulders, I think I grabbed him by his arm, trying to get one arm behind him or something.

I mean, it all happened so fast—as far as me sitting down and detailing it—I believe it was his right arm.

Mr. Ball. Was Oswald saying anything during this struggle?

Mr. Carroll. Not that you could understand, you know; he was making sounds like normally they will do when you are engaged in some kind of a vigorous scuffle or something like that.

Mr. Ball. What happened then after that?

Mr. Carroll. Well, after we got the handcuffs on him—it was McDonald and Jerry Hill, Ray Hawkins and myself, and I believe there was—I think it was Hutson—we started out of the theatre and we took him out through the main lobby to our car, which was parked right in front where we had left it—where Lyons and I pulled up, and we put him in our car in the back seat and I was driving and Jerry Hill was riding next to me and somewhere after this deal, someway or other—I don't know exactly when it was—Paul Bentley had joined the crowd, and he got into the car in the right-front seat and then Oswald and Hutson, I believe, were in the back seat, and we left there and drove to the police station.

Mr. Ball. After Oswald had been handcuffed, did he say anything?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir; as we were bringing him out of the theatre, he hollered that he was going to protest this police brutality. I believe those were his words—the latter part—"Protest the police brutality" were his exact words. The rest of it was what he had done and that he hadn't done nothing and stuff like that.

Mr. Ball. Did he say he hadn't done anything?

Mr. Carroll. The best I remember that was it—after we had him in the car. We were coming down to the station and he said that he hadn't done anything and he said, "I did have a pistol and I know that that's wrong, but I haven't done anything." That's the best I recall of what he said.

Mr. Ball. Did you see any marks on Oswald's face?

Mr. Carroll. Yes—there was one, I believe it was on the left—right eye—I can't recall which one it was—I know he had a mark up here, somewhere up here, I believe it was over his left eye—I'm not real sure.

Mr. Ball. Where was Oswald the first time you saw the mark over his eye?

Mr. Carroll. The first time I remember was after we got him in the car. Of course, I wasn't paying too much attention to the marks or anything right there, we was trying to get him subdued.

Mr. Ball. As he came out of the theatre, was he shouting in a loud voice or speaking softly?

Mr. Carroll. Well, when we came out the door, it was rather difficult because there was quite a crowd there outside the theatre and it was pretty noisy and several people were hollering, you know—"Kill him," or "Let us have him, and we'll kill him." It was rather noisy, and after we come out of the theatre—I couldn't hear, you know, if he said anything I couldn't actually hear it.

Mr. Ball. Did you shut Oswald up any way—did you do anything to keep his mouth shut?

Mr. Carroll. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. A witness testified yesterday—he said that as Oswald came out of the theatre, that there were two men on each side of him and one man behind him that had his arm underneath his chin so as to tilt his head back and close his mouth; do you remember anything like that?

Mr. Carroll. I don't remember anything like that. I was in front—when we came out of the theatre, I was directly in front of Oswald, and I say "directly"—just almost right in front of him and there were two people, I know,22 one each side of him had him by his arms, but I did not see anyone holding his mouth or trying to keep his mouth shut.

Mr. Ball. On the way down to the police station, did anyone in the car ask Oswald if he had shot the President?

Mr. Carroll. I don't think—I don't think they asked him if he shot the President. I don't recall asking him if he shot the President. I think most of the conversation was about Tippit at that time.

Mr. Ball. What do you remember as to that conversation about Tippit at the time?

Mr. Carroll. Like—he said he hadn't done anything except, well, he said, "I had a pistol, and that's all I've done—just carry a pistol."

Mr. Ball. Did any one officer state to Oswald that he had killed Tippit?

Mr. Carroll. I don't recall him just coming out openly and saying, "You killed him," or anything like that. Of course, questions were being asked. I don't remember now who was asking them then, but I was driving the car and I was trying to get him from out there down here as fast as we could.

Mr. Ball. After you took the pistol, what did you do with it?

Mr. Carroll. The pistol?

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Carroll. After I took the pistol, I stuck it in my belt immediately. Then, after we got into the car and pulled out from the theater over there, I gave it to Jerry Hill, Sgt. Jerry Hill.

Mr. Ball. And he was sitting in the front seat?

Mr. Carroll. In the front seat right beside me and in the middle, I think Paul Bentley was sitting on the right side and Jerry was sitting there.

Mr. Ball. And you went down to the police station?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. Carroll. When we got down in the basement and brought Oswald up, I was in front with everyone else surrounding him and we walked directly from the car to the elevator, got on the elevator and went up to the third floor to the homicide and robbery office and took him right into the homicide and robbery office and took him into one of our interrogation rooms, where we released him to the homicide and robbery office.

Mr. Ball. Whom did you release him to?

Mr. Carroll. I don't recall which one of the officers it was—there were several standing around there, but they would just take him and hand him to one particular officer. We just put him in the room and they more or less come in and we would back off.

Mr. Ball. Where did you go?

Mr. Carroll. I went into the police personnel office.

Mr. Ball. Who went in there with you?

Mr. Carroll. There was Jerry Hill, Ray Hawkins, McDonald, Hutson, Bentley, Lyons, and myself. Oh, by the way, Lyons was in the car with us also when we came from the theatre to the police department. I don't remember whether he was sitting in the front or back seat, though, but he did come down with us.

Lyons had sprained his ankle and Paul Bentley also had sprained his ankle, and shortly after we went into the police personnel office Lyons and Bentley left and went to Parkland to have their legs checked and taken care of.

Mr. Ball. Had you looked at the pistol to see if it was loaded before you got to the personnel office?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir; when I gave it to Jerry Hill, he unloaded it.

Mr. Ball. He unloaded it there in the car?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And were you able to see that?

Mr. Carroll. Wait just a minute—I know he checked the cylinder and I don't recall whether he actually unloaded it at the time or whether he waited to unload it downtown, but I believe he unloaded it there at the car.

Mr. Ball. Anyway, you know it was unloaded in your presence?

Mr. Carroll. Yes; and I saw the bullets.

Mr. Ball. It was unloaded in your presence?

23 Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And how many bullets were there in the cylinder?

Mr. Carroll. Just—the cylinder was full—six.

Mr. Ball. Six bullets?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. Yes; I believe it was full.

Mr. Ball. Was McDonald there at that time?

Mr. Carroll. I don't recall whether he was right there at that moment or not.

Mr. Ball. Did you examine these bullets?

Mr. Carroll. I looked at them, yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you see anything unusual about any one of them?

Mr. Carroll. Not—just at a glance. No, sir; they just looked like bullets.

Mr. Ball. Did you examine them more carefully at a later time?

Mr. Carroll. Someone made mention that one of the caps, you know, had a small indent on it, and I looked at it and I could see what looked to me like a hammer might have fallen on it.

Mr. Ball. On the firing pin?

Mr. Carroll. Yes—the firing pin looked like where the firing pin might have fallen on the cap.

Mr. Ball. It looked like the firing pin had fallen on the cap?

Mr. Carroll. That's right.

Mr. Ball. And did you see that with your naked eye or did you need a glass?

Mr. Carroll. Well, when I looked at it, it looked to me like it was just a real light indent.

Mr. Ball. That was without a glass?

Mr. Carroll. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Did you look at it as you were there in the personnel department?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Was McDonald there that day?

Mr. Carroll. I'm sure he was—I don't actually recall him sitting there. He was there most of the time.

Mr. Ball. Did you see McDonald make a mark on the gun?

Mr. Carroll. Yes; I saw him make a mark.

Mr. Ball. When was this done?

Mr. Carroll. It was up in the personnel police office.

Mr. Ball. At this meeting that you were just describing?

Mr. Carroll. Yes; when we were all in there together.

Mr. Ball. And tell me briefly who was present when you saw McDonald make the mark on the gun?

Mr. Carroll. Well, let's see—there was myself, Mack, I think Ray Hawkins was there, and I believe Hutson was there, and I believe Bentley and Lyons had already gone out to have their feet checked, and I don't recall whether Captain Westbrook was in there at the time or not. There were so many people—I would have to kind of explain that—I know it sounds vague, but there were so many people in and out of there and there were about no less than anywhere from half a dozen to a dozen newspaper reporters in and out and they were bringing in mikes and it was just a big mess of confusion. You couldn't just sit down and detail this thing and say this man was at this particular spot at this time. It was so jumbled up there.

Mr. Ball. Whom did you give the gun to finally?

Mr. Carroll. After I gave it to—Jerry Hill—that was the last time I had possession of it—possession of the gun.

Mr. Ball. And did you know who took possession of the bullets?

Mr. Carroll. I don't recall, sir. I don't recall even seeing the gun or the bullets turned over to anyone by Hill.

Mr. Ball. But you know in the personnel department after you had delivered Oswald to the homicide squadron, you saw the gun and six bullets?

Mr. Carroll. Yes sir.

Mr. Ball. With this group of officers?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And you examined them?

Mr. Carroll. Yes.

24 Mr. Ball. I think that's all.

Mr. Carroll, this will be written up by the shorthand reporter and you have the privilege of looking it over and making any corrections and signing it, if you wish, or you can waive signature and we will send it on to the Commission.

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir; all right, sir.

Mr. Ball. Do you want to waive signature?

Mr. Carroll. No, sir; I will sign it.

Mr. Ball. All right, then, if you want to sign it, we'll get in touch with you and tell you what time it will be ready and you can come down and look it over.

Mr. Carroll. All right.

Mr. Ball. All right, fine. Thank you very much for coming in.

Mr. Carroll. All right, thank you.

TESTIMONY OF BOB K. CARROLL RESUMED

The testimony of Bob K. Carroll was taken at 10 30 a.m., on April 9, 1984, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Belin. Will you rise and be sworn, please. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Carroll. I do, sir.

Mr. Belin. Your name is?

Mr. Carroll. Bob K. Carroll.

Mr. Belin. You previously had your deposition taken here in Dallas by the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, have you not?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Did Mr. Ball take that?

Mr. Carroll. It was Mr. Ball; yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. About what day was that?

Mr. Carroll. It was on a Friday, last, I believe. I don't know what day that would be.

Mr. Belin. Well, today is the following Thursday. At that time we didn't have some of the exhibits here, Officer Carroll, and since then they have come in. I now want to hand you one of the exhibits which has been marked as Commission Exhibit 143 and ask you to state what that is?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir. It is a .38 caliber revolver with a blue steel 2" barrel with wooden handle.

Mr. Belin. Have you ever seen this before?

Mr. Carroll. Yes; I have.

Mr. Belin. Where did you first see it?

Mr. Carroll. I first saw it in the Texas Theatre on November 22, 1963.

Mr. Belin. Would you just tell us about this weapon, when you first saw it?

Mr. Carroll. The first time I saw the weapon, it was pointed in my direction, and I reached and grabbed it and stuck it into my belt.

Mr. Belin. What did you happen to be doing at the time?

Mr. Carroll. At the time, I was assisting in the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Belin. Do you know whose hand was on the gun when you saw it pointed in your direction?

Mr. Carroll. No; I do not.

Mr. Belin. You just jumped and grabbed it?

Mr. Carroll. I jumped and grabbed the gun; yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do with it?

Mr. Carroll. Stuck it in my belt.

Mr. Belin. And then?

25 Mr. Carroll. After leaving the theatre and getting into the car, I released the pistol to Sgt. Jerry Hill.

Mr. Belin. Sgt. G. L. Hill?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Who drove the car down to the station?

Mr. Carroll. I drove the car.

Mr. Belin. Did you give it to him before you started up the car, or after you started up the car, if you remember?

Mr. Carroll. After.

Mr. Belin. How far had you driven when you gave it to him?

Mr. Carroll. I don't recall exactly how far I had driven.

Mr. Belin. Did you put any identification mark at all on this weapon?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir; I did. The initials B. C., right above the screw on the inside of the butt of the pistol.

Mr. Belin. That is about an inch or so from the bottom of the pistol?

Mr. Carroll. Approximately an inch from the bottom of the butt of the pistol.

Mr. Belin. As you hold the pistol pointing, that metal strip is pointing up also, is that correct?

Mr. Carroll. That's correct.

Mr. Belin. Where did you put the initials?

Mr. Carroll. Where was I, or where did I put the initials on the pistol?

Mr. Belin. Where were you?

Mr. Carroll. I was in the personnel office of the city of Dallas police department.

Mr. Belin. With Sergeant Hill?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, and others who were present.

Mr. Belin. Did you see Sergeant Hill take it out of his pocket or wherever he had it, or not?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. What day did you put your initials on it?

Mr. Carroll. November 22, 1963.

Mr. Belin. During the drive down from the Texas Theatre, to the police station, do you remember any conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Carroll. Some. He stated that he had not done anything that—he said, "Well, I was carrying a pistol, but that is all."

Mr. Belin. Was he ever asked his name?

Mr. Carroll. Yes, sir; he was asked his name.

Mr. Belin. Did he give his name?

Mr. Carroll. He gave, the best I recall, I wasn't able to look closely, but the best I recall, he gave two names, I think. I don't recall what the other one was.

Mr. Belin. Did he give two names? Or did someone in the car read from the identification?

Mr. Carroll. Someone in the car may have read from the identification. I know two names, the best I recall, were mentioned.

Mr. Belin. Were any addresses mentioned?

Mr. Carroll. Not that I recall; no, sir.

Mr. Belin. Did you talk at any time to Oswald in the car?

Mr. Carroll. No, sir; I had no conversation with him personally.

Mr. Belin. You were driving the car?

Mr. Carroll. Yes. If I looked at him, I would have to turn around.

Mr. Belin. Did you talk to him after you got downtown to the station?

Mr. Carroll. No, sir.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear him say anything after he got downtown to the station?

Mr. Carroll. No; I didn't hear him say anything.

Mr. Belin. Did you ever hear anyone say anything about his having an address on North Beckley or on Beckley Street?

Mr. Carroll. I heard later, but I couldn't say who it was that said it.

Mr. Belin. When you say later, you mean later than what?

Mr. Carroll. Later that day.

26 Mr. Belin. Was this after you relinquished custody of Oswald?

Mr. Carroll. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Up to that time had you heard it?

Mr. Carroll. I don't recall hearing it prior to the time I was in the city hall.

Mr. Belin. Anything else you can think of, whether we have discussed this or not, that in any way might be relevant?

Mr. Carroll. No, sir; because when we brought him out of the car, we took him straight up to the homicide and robbery office and there left him in custody of a homicide and robbery officer.

Mr. Belin. When this gun, Commission Exhibit 143, was taken by you and then subsequently given to Hill, did you at any time notice whether it was or was not loaded?

Mr. Carroll. I observed Sergeant Hill unload the gun.

Mr. Belin. How many bullets were in it?

Mr. Carroll. It was full. I believe there was six bullets, the best I recall.

Mr. Belin. All right, sir; we thank you again for making the second trip down, and we are sorry we didn't have the exhibit here when you first testified.

You have an opportunity, if you like, to read your deposition and sign it before it goes to Washington, or you can waive.

Mr. Carroll. I will sign it.

Mr. Belin. All right, you will be contacted.

Mr. Carroll. All right, fine.

TESTIMONY OF THOMAS ALEXANDER HUTSON

The testimony of Thomas Alexander Hutson was taken at 9 a.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Belin. Would you stand and raise your right hand, please. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Hutson. I do.

Mr. Belin. Will you please state your name?

Mr. Hutson. Thomas A. Hutson.

Mr. Belin. And your occupation?

Mr. Hutson. Police officer for the city of Dallas.

Mr. Belin. How old are you, Mr. Hutson?

Mr. Hutson. Thirty-five years.

Mr. Belin. How long have you been a police officer?

Mr. Hutson. Nine years.

Mr. Belin. Go to school here in Dallas?

Mr. Hutson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. High school?

Mr. Hutson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Graduate of high school or not?

Mr. Hutson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. What school?

Mr. Hutson. Forest Avenue High School.

Mr. Belin. Where did you go when you got out of high school?

Mr. Hutson. Went to work for Texas & Pacific Railway in the general office at Elm and Griffin Street as a mail clerk.

Mr. Belin. How long was that?

Mr. Hutson. That was in 1947, in July—that is in January of 1947, and I worked there continuously until July of 1948, when I enlisted in the U.S. Army.

Mr. Belin. How long did you serve in the Army?

Mr. Hutson. Four years.

Mr. Belin. What did you do there?

Mr. Hutson. I went to Fort Ord, Calif., for basic training, and from there27 I went to Germany and joined the 1st Infantry Division, and I joined them in October of 1948.

I landed in Germany and I stayed with them in Germany until May of 1951, when I returned to the United States and was stationed at Fort Sam Houston.

Mr. Belin. What did you do, basically, in Germany?

Mr. Hutson. I started out in the Infantry, and when I left Germany I was in a more or less administrative part of my Infantry company, doing mail and administrative work in the sergeant's office. Plus, of course, you are primarily an Infantry soldier anyway.

Mr. Belin. You got back to the States?

Mr. Hutson. Right. In May of 1951, and I went to Fort Sam Houston, Tex., where I was promoted to Infantry sergeant, platoon sergeant, and there I gave instructions in Infantry tactics.

Mr. Belin. And eventually you were discharged?

Mr. Hutson. I went to Camp Pickett, Va., and we were there—this was during the Korean war when I started to train men in Camp Pickett, Va., and I got an extended year from a 3-year enlistment, and I was discharged in July of 1952.

Mr. Belin. Honorable discharge?

Mr. Hutson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Hutson. I returned to Dallas and went back to work for Texas & Pacific Railway as an interchange clerk in the accounting office.

Mr. Belin. How long did you stay with them?

Mr. Hutson. I stayed with Texas & Pacific for approximately a year, and at this time I resigned and a lifelong friend and I went into the service station business at Harwood and Grand here in Dallas.

Mr. Belin. How long did you stay in the service station business?

Mr. Hutson. We stayed in the service station business 18 months. I sold my interest to him around February the 5th, and I went to work for the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. Belin. What year?

Mr. Hutson. 1955.

Mr. Belin. What were your duties in the Dallas Police Department in the fall of 1963?

Mr. Hutson. I was a 3-wheel motorcycle officer.

Mr. Belin. Would that have included November 22, 1963?

Mr. Hutson. Yes, sir; it would.

Mr. Belin. Did you have anything to do in connection with the Presidential motorcade on November 22?

Mr. Hutson. Yes; I did.

Mr. Belin. What did you do?

Mr. Hutson. I was in charge of "no parking" on all of North Harwood Street and Main Street to Field on both sides of the street.

Mr. Belin. After the motorcade passed down Main, what did you do?

Mr. Hutson. I was at Main and Ervay Avenue, and after the motorcade passed, I began to pick up my "No-parking" signs.

Mr. Belin. Were you at Main and Ervay when the motorcade passed?

Mr. Hutson. Right.

Mr. Belin. To direct traffic?

Mr. Hutson. I was trying—we were trying to hold the noon crowds back that was surging in the street.

Mr. Belin. After the motorcade passed, then you started picking up the signs?

Mr. Hutson. Yes.

Mr. Belin. What did you do after that?

Mr. Hutson. As I was picking up the signs, I heard a Signal 19, involving the President of the United States at Elm and Houston.

Mr. Belin. Now had you heard anything ahead of that time?

Mr. Hutson. I saw this squad car go by me with the siren on.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Hutson. And as I got back to my motorcycle from picking up the signs, I heard the Signal 19, involving the President of the United States at Elm and Houston. I immediately made an emergency run to this location.

28 Mr. Belin. What did you do when you got there?

Mr. Hutson. I pulled up in front of the Texas School Book Depository and got off my motorcycle and took a position up on the sidewalk in front of the main entrance.

Mr. Belin. Now there are a few steps between the sidewalk and the main entrance. Were you at the bottom of the steps?

Mr. Hutson. Yes; I was at the bottom of the steps.

Mr. Belin. What did you do at the bottom of the steps?

Mr. Hutson. I stopped people and screened them from trying to enter, and prevented anyone from leaving if he got through the other two officers.

Mr. Belin. You were there with two more officers?

Mr. Hutson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Where were they?

Mr. Hutson. They were at the top of the stairs at the door.

Mr. Belin. Do you know the names of these officers?

Mr. Hutson. I am not positive, but the best of my knowledge, it was J. B. Garrick and H. R. Freeman.

Mr. Belin. Were those officers there when you got there?

Mr. Hutson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Were they motorcycle officers or not?

Mr. Hutson. Solo motorcycle officers.

Mr. Belin. How long did you stay there?

Mr. Hutson. I don't know the exact amount of time that I stayed there.

Mr. Belin. What is your best judgment?

Mr. Hutson. Thirty minutes.

Mr. Belin. Why did you leave?

Mr. Hutson. I was relieved by my sergeant.

Mr. Belin. Did you let people go in that said they were employees within the building?

Mr. Hutson. No, sir. One lady came up that was an employee. I refused to let anyone enter except police officers.

Mr. Belin. Did you see anyone leave the building?

Mr. Hutson. No, sir.

Mr. Belin. Was your back to the building?

Mr. Hutson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Now there were lots of people milling around at that time, I assume?

Mr. Hutson. Not at the entrance, there wasn't when I first got there. There wasn't a big crowd around that building, but all the sirens coming in, that is what brought the big crowd.

Mr. Belin. Could you hear any witnesses say they had seen a rifle or anything from the building?

Mr. Hutson. No; I didn't.

Mr. Belin. Well, you left. What did you do when you were relieved from duty?

Mr. Hutson. As I was being released, I heard the radio dispatcher come on the radio and give a Signal 19, and that a shooting involving a police officer in the 500 block of East Jefferson, and he came back on shortly and said to check both 500 East Jefferson and East Tenth, that they weren't sure on the exact location.

Mr. Belin. Was this at about the time you were being released?

Mr. Hutson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Now when you first got the signal to go to Elm and Houston, did he say Elm and Houston?

Mr. Hutson. Elm and Houston, that is the location I heard.

Mr. Belin. How long do you feel that it took you to get from where you were on Main at that time?

Mr. Hutson. I was in the 1800 block of Main Street, eastbound, and I made a turn and used my siren and red lights, and the maximum amount of time it could have taken me would be 3 minutes.

Mr. Belin. So you got there in 3 minutes, and within 3 minutes after you heard the signal you were stopping people from going in?

29 Mr. Hutson. Yes.

Mr. Belin. You are nodding your head, yes?

Mr. Hutson. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Do you know how many minutes after the shooting you heard the first notice over the police radio?

Mr. Hutson. No, I don't.

Mr. Belin. At times you were working away from your police radio while you were picking up the signs, is that correct?

Mr. Hutson. Yes; and you can't hear the radio from a distance.

Mr. Belin. When you heard this news about this shooting in Oak Cliff—by the way, where was your regular station ordinarily?

Mr. Hutson. I worked west of Vernon on Jefferson.

Mr. Belin. Is that Oak Cliff?

Mr. Hutson. Yes; that is West Jefferson Boulevard.

Mr. Belin. What did you do after you heard about the shooting?

Mr. Hutson. I got on my motorcycle and I proceeded down through the triple underpass and up onto R. L. Thornton Freeway to Oak Cliff.

Mr. Belin. Where did you go?

Mr. Hutson. I exited off Jefferson and went to the 400 block of East Jefferson Boulevard and began a search of the two-story house behind 10th Street where the officer had been shot.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Hutson. And after we searched this area, I got in the squad car with Officer Ray Hawkins, who was driving, and Officer Baggett was riding in the back seat.

Mr. Belin. Why did you get inside the squad car?

Mr. Hutson. The clutch on my motorcycle was burned out and I couldn't get any speed, and I just barely made it over there, and I didn't know whether I would be able to start and go or not.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Hutson. We proceeded west on 10th Street to Beckley, and we pulled into the Mobil gas station at Beckley and 10th Street.

Mr. Belin. That is a Mobil gas station?

Mr. Hutson. Yes.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Hutson. And Officer Ray Hawkins and Officer Baggett went inside of the Mobil gas station. And I am not positive, but I think they used the telephone to call in.

I am not positive, but I believe they gave us a call for us to call. I mean their number to call in.

At the time they were in the service station, I heard the dispatcher give a call that the suspect was just seen running across the lawn at the Oak Cliff Branch Library at Marsalis and Jefferson.

I reached over and blew the siren on the squad car to attract the officers' attention, Officers Baggett and Hawkins, and they came running out of the service station and jumped in the car, and I told them to report to, I can't remember, Marsalis and Jefferson, the suspect was seen running across the lawn at the library.

We proceeded south on Beckley to Jefferson, and east on Jefferson to Marsalis, where we hit the ground and searched the area at the library for the suspect who was—a teenager had run across the lawn and into the basement of the library.

At this time, after we found out that this person wasn't involved, we returned to the squad car and began to drive west on Jefferson, west on East Jefferson, and as we approached the 100 block of East Jefferson, the dispatcher said on the radio, that a suspect was just seen entering the Texas Theatre.

Mr. Belin. Now the suspect in the library, do you know who he was?

Mr. Hutson. No; I don't. There were several officers at the location, including some constables from the constable's office in Oak Cliff at Beckley and 12th, and there were four or five persons that came out from the basement with their hands over their head.

30 One of them was a young boy there, and another officer or two checked him. A sergeant was there.

Mr. Belin. Was that young boy the one that they thought was a suspect?

Mr. Hutson. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Do you know what the young boy said he was doing there?

Mr. Hutson. No, sir; I didn't interrogate him or talk to him.

Mr. Belin. Then you heard about another report on the suspect, you say?

Mr. Hutson. Yes, sir. Then we left that location as we were proceeding west on East Jefferson, and as we approached the 100 block of East Jefferson, the radio dispatcher said that a suspect had just entered the Texas Theatre.

Mr. Belin. All right, now, prior to that time had there been any recovery of any items of clothing?

Mr. Hutson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. When did that occur?

Mr. Hutson. That occurred while we were searching the rear of the house in the 400 block of East Jefferson Boulevard at the rear of the Texaco station. Behind cars parked on a lot at this location, a white jacket was picked up by another officer. I observed him as he picked it up, and it was stated that this is probably the suspect's jacket. The original description was that he was wearing a white jacket.

Mr. Belin. What kind of jacket was it?

Mr. Hutson. It looked like a white cloth jacket to me.

Mr. Belin. Was it the zipper type?

Mr. Hutson. I didn't see it that close. I was approximately 25 yards away from the officer who picked it up.

Mr. Belin. All right, go ahead, continue with your story. You heard about the suspect going into the Texas Theatre?

Mr. Hutson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Then what happened?

Mr. Hutson. I told Officer Hawkins to drive west on Jefferson. He didn't know the exact location of the Texas Theatre. And from west on Jefferson to north on South Zangs Boulevard, and to make a left turn to travel west on West Sunset the wrong direction, which is a one-way street, and then to cut back in across the parking lot at the rear of the theatre to the fire exit doors at the rear.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Hutson. We pulled up to this location and I was the first out of the car to hit the ground. As I walked up to the fire exit doors, Officer Hawkins and Baggett were getting out of the car, and the door to the theatre opened, and this unknown white male was exiting.

I drew my pistol and put it on him and told him to put up his hands and not to make a move, and he was real nervous and scared and said: "I am not the one. I just came back to open the door. I work up the street at the shoestore, and Julia sent me back to open the door so you could get in."

I walked up and searched him briefly and I could see by the description and his clothes that he wasn't the person we were looking for.

Then I entered the theatre from this door, and Officer Hawkins with me, and Officer Baggett stayed behind to cover the fire exit door.

We walked down the bottom floor of the theatre, and I was joined there by Officer Walker by me, and as we walked up the north aisle from the center section, I observed Officer McDonald walking up the south aisle from the center section, and we observed two suspects sitting near the front in the center section.

Mr. Belin. You were on the right center or the left center?

Mr. Hutson. I was on the left center.

Mr. Belin. That would be the left center, and McDonald on the right center aisle?

Mr. Hutson. Yes; and Officer Walker was with me on the left center aisle.

Officer McDonald and Walker searched these two suspects, had them stand up and searched them while I covered.

As soon as they were searched—well, I left out that part about the number31 of people sitting in the theatre on the lower floor. When I walked in, I noticed there were seven people I observed sitting on the lower floor.

Mr. Belin. Did you count them?

Mr. Hutson. Yes, sir; I counted them.

Mr. Belin. All right, seven people. There were two people you noticed toward the front of the center section, right?

Mr. Hutson. Right.

Mr. Belin. Then where were the other five?

Mr. Hutson. There was two sitting in the center section near the front, and directly behind them, five rows from the back, and three seats over, I am not sure whether that was the third row—I put it in my report——

Mr. Belin. You say you put it in your report. Is that your report dated December 3, 1963?

Mr. Hutson. The third row from the back and the fifth seat.

Mr. Belin. Was there another person there?

Mr. Hutson. That was another person.

Mr. Belin. Who was that?

Mr. Hutson. That was Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. Belin. You didn't know it at the time?

Mr. Hutson. I didn't know who it was; no, sir.

Mr. Belin. Then who else?

Mr. Hutson. And directly behind him sitting against the back of the theatre was another man.

Mr. Belin. In the back of the last row of the center section?

Mr. Hutson. Yes.

Mr. Belin. That accounts for four people. Where were the others?

Mr. Hutson. There were two young boys.

Mr. Belin. Where were they?

Mr. Hutson. They were sitting back on the same row as that man, back row.

Mr. Belin. Right center or left center?

Mr. Hutson. They were sitting in the left as you face the screen, left center section.

Mr. Belin. All right, that accounts for six of them, and the only other people was one person sitting over here to the right side toward the rear?

Mr. Hutson. Yes; toward the rear.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember how many people were upstairs, or didn't you count?

Mr. Hutson. I couldn't tell, so many people up there, and so many policemen when I looked up. I don't have any idea.

Mr. Belin. Then what happened after you saw these two people towards the front of the center section? Were they searched?

Mr. Hutson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Then what?

Mr. Hutson. Then I proceeded up the aisle toward the back of the theatre, and McDonald was walking toward the back of the theatre in the right center section aisle.

As he approached this person sitting in the same row of seats, he approached this person. I approached from the row behind.

Mr. Belin. You approached from the second row from the back?

Mr. Hutson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. All right, then what did you see happen?

Mr. Hutson. I saw this person stand up, and McDonald and him became engaged in a struggle.

Mr. Belin. Did you see who hit whom first?

Mr. Hutson. No.

Mr. Belin. You are shaking your head, no.

Mr. Hutson. No, I didn't.

Mr. Belin. Okay.

Mr. Hutson. The lights were down. The lights were on in the theatre, but it was dark.

Mr. Belin. All right.

32 Mr. Hutson. Visibility was poor.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you see happen?

Mr. Hutson. I saw McDonald down in the seat beside this person, and this person was in a half standing crouching position pushing down on the left side of McDonald's face, and McDonald was trying to push him off.

Mr. Belin. This person was right-handed?

You have used a motion here that he was pushing on the left side of McDonald's face?

Mr. Hutson. Right.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Hutson. And McDonald was trying to hold him off with his hand.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Hutson. I reached over from the back of the seat with my right arm and put it around this person's throat.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Hutson. And pulled him back up on the back of the seat that he was originally sitting in.

At this time Officer C. T. Walker came up in the same row of seats that the struggle was taking place in and grabbed this person's left hand and held it.

Mr. Belin. Okay.

Mr. Hutson. McDonald was at this time simultaneously trying to hold this person's right hand.

Somehow this person moved his right hand to his waist, and I saw a revolver come out, and McDonald was holding on to it with his right hand, and this gun was waving up toward the back of the seat like this.

Mr. Belin. Now you had your left hand, or was it McDonald's left hand, on the suspect's right hand?

Mr. Hutson. McDonald was using both of his hands to hold onto this person's right hand.

Mr. Belin. Okay.

Mr. Hutson. And the gun was waving around towards the back of the seat, up and down, and I heard a snapping sound at one time.

Mr. Belin. What kind of snapping sound was it?

Mr. Hutson. Sounded like the snap of a pistol, to me, when a pistol snaps.

Mr. Belin. Do you know which way the pistol was pointing when you heard the snap?

Mr. Hutson. Was pointing toward the back of the seat.

Mr. Belin. It was pointing toward the back of the seat?

Mr. Hutson. Yes; toward the screen in the front of the theatre, in that direction.

Mr. Belin. Wait a minute, now. Toward the screen?

Mr. Hutson. Right.

Mr. Belin. Toward the front of the theatre, or the back of the theatre?

Mr. Hutson. Toward the front of the theatre, we will call, facing the screen.

Mr. Belin. Was it aiming at anyone in particular?

Mr. Hutson. No; not any officer in particular. The only one that could have came in the line of fire was Officer Ray Hawkins, who was walking up in the row of seats in front.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear any people say anything? Did you hear the suspect say anything?

Mr. Hutson. I don't remember hearing anybody say anything.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear Officer McDonald say anything?

Mr. Hutson. No.

Mr. Belin. You are shaking your head no.

Mr. Hutson. No, sir.

Mr. Belin. All right, what happened then?

Mr. Hutson. The gun was taken from the suspect's hand by Officer McDonald and somebody else. I couldn't say exactly. They were all in on the struggle, and Officer Hawkins, in other words, he simultaneously, we decided to handcuff him.

We had restrained him after the pistol was taken, but he was still resisting arrest, and we stood him up and I let go of his neck at this time and took hold33 of his right arm and attempted to bring it back behind him, and Officer Hawkins and Walker and myself attempted to handcuff him.

At this time Sgt. Jerry Hill came up and assisted as we were handcuffing.

Then Captain Westbrook came in and gave the order to get him out of here as fast as you can and don't let anybody see him, and he was rushed out of the theatre.

I was in the row of seats behind. I saw Officer Walker and Sgt. Jerry Hill had ahold of him, and that is the last I ever saw him.

Mr. Belin. Did you ever see him down at the police station thereafter?

Mr. Hutson. Oswald?

Mr. Belin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hutson. No, sir; I never did see him again.

Mr. Belin. How do you know this was Oswald?

Mr. Hutson. After we finished up in the theatre, I went downtown and went into the office where they were writing up the report, and to tell them the part I took in the arrest of him, to get the information, and at this time they had his name, Lee Harvey Oswald, but all we knew is, he was probably the suspect that shot the officer.

Mr. Belin. In the theatre did you know that he had any connection with the assassination?

Mr. Hutson. No, sir.

Mr. Belin. When did the police stop hitting him?

Mr. Hutson. I never did ever see them hit him.

Mr. Belin. You never saw any police hit him?

Mr. Hutson. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Belin. Is there anything else that you can think of about this incident that you haven't related here?

While you are thinking about it, I am going to get a piece of clothing here for a minute and I will be back.

Anything else, Officer, you can think of?

Mr. Hutson. I can't think of anything else right now.

Mr. Belin. I am showing you Commission Exhibit 162, which appears to be a jacket with a zipper. Does that look like the jacket you saw?

Mr. Hutson. That looks like the jacket that was picked up by the officer behind the Texaco service station, behind the cars parked on the lot.

Mr. Belin. How far were you from the officer when he picked it up?

Mr. Hutson. Approximately 25 yards.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear what he said when he picked it up?

Mr. Hutson. I heard something—someone make the statement that that looks like the suspect's jacket. He has thrown it down. He is not wearing it now.

Mr. Belin. Where is this Texaco station?

Mr. Hutson. It is in the 400 block of East Jefferson at the intersection. It is on the northeast corner of the intersection of Crawford and Jefferson.

Mr. Belin. How far north of Jefferson would this jacket have been when it was found?

Mr. Hutson. One-half block.

Mr. Belin. Do you know the name of the officer that found it?

Mr. Hutson. No, sir; I don't know.

Mr. Belin. What happened to the jacket?

Mr. Hutson. The last time I saw this jacket, the officer had it in his possession.

Mr. Belin. Do you know who he gave it to?

Mr. Hutson. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. Belin. You don't know if he gave it to Captain Westbrook?

Mr. Hutson. I don't know. Captain Westbrook was there behind the house with us, and he was there at the time this was picked up with the man, but I don't know who had it in their hands. The only time I saw it was when the officer had it.

Mr. Belin. Showing you Commission Exhibit 150, have you ever seen this before, or not?

34 Mr. Hutson. It looks like the shirt that the person was wearing that we arrested in the theatre.

Mr. Belin. Officer, you have the right, if you want, to come back and read your deposition and sign it, or you can waive the signing and let the court reporter send it to us directly in Washington. Do you desire to do either one?

Mr. Hutson. I will go ahead and sign it.

Mr. Belin. The court reporter can get in touch with you at the Dallas Police Department, is that correct?

Mr. Hutson. Yes.

Mr. Belin. We want to thank you very much for your cooperation, and please convey my thanks to your sergeant or captain, whoever is in charge.

Mr. Hutson. All right, nice to have seen you all.

TESTIMONY OF C. T. WALKER

The testimony of C. T. Walker was taken at 1:30 p.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Belin. Do you want to stand and raise your right hand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Walker. I do.

Mr. Belin. What is your name, please?

Mr. Walker. C. T. Walker.

Mr. Belin. What is your occupation, Mr. Walker?

Mr. Walker. Accident investigations at the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. Belin. How old are you?

Mr. Walker. I am 31 years old.

Mr. Belin. Married?

Mr. Walker. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Family?

Mr. Walker. One child. One girl.

Mr. Belin. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. Walker. Five years in July.

Mr. Belin. What did you do prior to that?

Mr. Walker. I worked in Chance Vought Aircraft, in Grand Prairie.

Mr. Belin. Where were you born?

Mr. Walker. Stephenville, Tex.—I wasn't born there, I am sorry. I was born in Slaton, Tex.

Mr. Belin. Where were you born?

Mr. Walker. Slaton, Tex.

Mr. Belin. Where did you go to school?

Mr. Walker. Stephenville, Tex.

Mr. Belin. Did you you go to high school there?

Mr. Walker. I didn't finish high school.

Mr. Belin. How far did you finish?

Mr. Walker. Tenth grade.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Walker. I went to work at that time for Consolidated Aircraft in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. Belin. How long did you work for them?

Mr. Walker. Approximately 2 years.

Mr. Belin. What did you do?

Mr. Walker. Aircraft mechanic work.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Walker. I worked—I went back to Slaton, Tex., and worked for my uncle there for 1 year drilling irrigation wells.

35 Mr. Belin. After that what did you do?

Mr. Walker. I came back to Grand Prairie and went to work there and worked there 5½ years.

Mr. Belin. Doing what?

Mr. Walker. Aircraft mechanic and electrical work.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Walker. I came to work for the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. Belin. When was that?

Mr. Walker. 1959, July the 27th.

Mr. Belin. And you have been there ever since?

Mr. Walker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. Walker. Yes; I was.

Mr. Belin. Will you state where you were on duty around 12 or 12:30 or so on that day?

Mr. Walker. I was at Jefferson and Tenth Street at the fire station.

Mr. Belin. Is that in the Oak Cliff section there?

Mr. Walker. Yes; it is.

Mr. Belin. What were you doing there?

Mr. Walker. I was cruising the area and I had heard on the radio about the disturbance downtown, so I checked out at the fire station. I didn't check out. I just stopped and went in and listened to the news broadcast to find out in more detail what happened.

Mr. Belin. Were you cruising alone at that time?

Mr. Walker. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Is it general procedure for officers cruising in the daytime to work alone or in pairs?

Mr. Walker. Accident investigations, we work alone. That is day and night.

Mr. Belin. Day and night?

Mr. Walker. Yes.

Mr. Belin. What about nonaccident investigation? Do you know offhand?

Mr. Walker. Radio patrol work, one man during the day. Second and third platoon, they work two men.

Mr. Belin. That would be the second platoon would come to work about 4 in the afternoon?

Mr. Walker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Did you know Officer J. D. Tippit?

Mr. Walker. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Ever work with him at all?

Mr. Walker. I believe I have. I can't recall. I worked at the same substation he did before I transferred downtown, and I knew him quite well. I talked to him. He worked at Austin, and I have talked to him there.

Mr. Belin. Well, let's leave Officer Tippit for the moment and return to the fire station. You were there and you say you called in around shortly after you heard the news?

Mr. Walker. Yes. I went directly there. I was about a block away or might have been in the block I don't recall exactly.

Mr. Belin. You mean a block away from the fire station?

Mr. Walker. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do when you called in?

Mr. Walker. I didn't call in. I just went in there and looked. They have a television there, and they broadcast that the President had been shot.

I had my radio up so I could hear from the door, and I went back out to my car. They were sending squads downtown, Code 3.

And I don't recall, I don't believe they actually sent me. I just went on my own because they normally don't send us in this type of call.

Mr. Belin. So you went on your own where?

Mr. Walker. I went to the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. Belin. That is at Elm and Houston?

Mr. Walker. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Where did you park your car?

Mr. Walker. Right in front of the building.

36 Mr. Belin. What did you do after you got your car parked?

Mr. Walker. Went inside the building.

Mr. Belin. Where did you go inside?

Mr. Walker. I went right inside the front doors there and the hallway there and I stayed in there.

Mr. Belin. What did you do?

Mr. Walker. Well, there was squads of police upstairs supposedly searching the building out, and someone said they have enough upstairs, so I didn't go upstairs.

Mr Belin. What did you do when you were downstairs?

Mr. Walker. We were checking persons as they came in the building.

Mr. Belin. Did you keep people from coming in or going out, or what?

Mr. Walker. We didn't let anyone in or out except policemen.

Mr. Belin. About how soon after you saw the telecast do you think you got down there?

Mr. Walker. Ten or fifteen minutes.

Mr. Belin. Was the building sealed off at that time?

Mr. Walker. Yes; it was.

Mr. Belin. Did anyone tell you when they got it sealed off, or not?

Mr. Walker. No; they didn't.

Mr. Belin. What did you do after that?

Mr. Walker. I heard that an officer had been killed in Oak Cliff, had been shot, and I got back in my car and started off. A newsman ran up to the window and said, "Can I ride with you," and I let him get in the car and I went to Oak Cliff and 10th Street, and drove by the scene.

In fact, there was two newspapermen, but one got out at the scene where Officer Tippit was killed.

Mr. Belin. Was Officer Tippit's car still there?

Mr. Walker. Yes; it was still there.

Mr. Belin. Do you have any recollection—did you take a look at the car or not?

Mr. Walker. I didn't really look real close.

Mr. Belin. Did you talk to any witnesses there?

Mr. Walker. No; I didn't get out.

Mr. Belin. What did you do then?

Mr. Walker. I started up cruising the area, and I went up the street that runs north and south and faces the, runs into the library at Jefferson and Marsalis, and I saw a white male running east across the lawn of the library.

I was still approximately three-fourths of the block from Jefferson, and he was even south of Jefferson.

Mr. Belin. How far would he have been from you then when you saw him?

Mr. Walker. He was over a block.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Walker. I put out a broadcast on the air that there was a person fitting the description on the air that was seen running in front of the library, and I gave the location and said I will be around at the back. I ran around to the back of the library and other squads then surrounded the library.

Mr. Belin. You were not the one that put out the first description of the suspect they sought?

Mr. Walker. I didn't. The newspaperman was still with me at that time.

Mr. Belin. What was the description, if you remember, over the radio as to what you were looking for?

Mr. Walker. A white male, slender build, and had on a light-colored coat or shirt, and that is the best I can recall.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Walker. About 30 years old, I think he said.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do? Did you go into the library?

Mr. Walker. As soon as the squads got there, I walked around with the other squads to the west entrance of the building, and we ordered everyone out of the building. They all came out with their hands up.

Mr. Belin. Was this the upstairs?

37 Mr. Walker. No; it is the downstairs. You had to go downstairs to get to it.

Mr. Belin. Something like a basement?

Mr. Walker. Yes. It is a semibasement, I would call it. And everyone came out, and I saw the person that had run in there, and he said that he had ran there to tell the other people about the shooting. And let's see, that he worked there, he told me he worked there and everything. I soon determined he wasn't the one.

Mr. Belin. Then what happened?

Mr. Walker. I got back in my car and started cruising the area again. I went up and down the alleys and streets. And there was one incident that really didn't have anything to do with it. I guess I was cruising up the alley with the newspaperman in the car, and I saw a man in long white sleeves, white shirt, walking across the parking lot there of the church, and I couldn't see below his legs, and there was a picket fence there, and when he got about 30 feet from me, I stopped the car, and he was walking toward me, and I had my gun in my lap at the time, and I said, "What is your name?" And he just looked at me. And at that time I didn't know whether he had a rifle or what he had, and he just looked at me, and he bent over, and I stuck my gun in the window and he raised up and had a small dog and he said, "What did you say?" And of course that newspaperman said, "My God, I thought he was going to shoot us."

I said, "I thought he was reaching down for a rifle."

Of course, he reached down and picked up a little dog.

Then we got around to Beckley and 10th Street, still cruising the area, when I heard the call come over the radio that the suspect was supposed to be at the theatre on Jefferson.

Mr. Belin. Was this the Texas Theatre?

Mr. Walker. Texas Theatre; yes.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Walker. I went in the alley up to the back door. When I arrived there, there was several officers there. There was a plainclothesman up on the ladder back there. I don't know what he was doing up there, but he was up on the ladder that goes up that door that is in the back. And there were several officers around the back of the theatre, and myself, and McDonald, and Officer Hutson went in the back door. And this man told us, or this boy told us that there was someone, said the person that he had seen was inside the theatre, and that he had changed seats several times, and he thought he was out there in the middle now.

Mr. Belin. Did he say that he had seen him? Did he tell you what he had seen him do, or not?

Mr. Walker. He said he seen him duck into the store where he worked, kind of looked back, and looked like he was running, and just run into the theatre.

Mr. Belin. Did he say why he seemed to duck in the store at all?

Mr. Walker. No; he didn't. He said he looked like he was scared.

Mr. Belin. Then do you remember this man's name that you talked to?

Mr. Walker. No; it was just for a second, and I went on past him.

Mr. Belin. All right, this was at the back of the theatre?

Mr. Walker. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Did anyone have a gun drawn when this man came?

Mr. Walker. I had my gun out. I had my gun out when I walked in the back of the theatre.

Mr. Belin. Did you have your gun as you continued walking through the back of the theatre?

Mr. Walker. I walked—McDonald and I walked across the stage, and he walked across the farthest away. It would be the south aisle. And I jumped off there where the north aisle runs east and west, and we started up. Hutson went down the steps in front of both of us, and he was slightly in front of me.

Mr. Belin. You are speaking about Officer T. A. Hutson and Officer M. N. McDonald and yourself?

Mr. Walker. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. The three of you came in from the back?

Mr. Walker. Yes; and there were probably a couple more, but I just don't remember.

38 Mr. Belin. Those are the three you remember?

Mr. Walker. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Now as you faced the screen, were you going up the right center or the left center aisle?

Mr. Walker. As I faced the screen, I would be going up the left.

Mr. Belin. Was it the left center aisle or was it the far left aisle that you were going up?

Mr. Walker. Be the far left aisle, I believe.

Mr. Belin. Next to the wall?

Mr. Walker. No; there is no aisle exactly against the wall. There is a row of seats, and then an aisle, and the middle aisle, and then another row of seats.

Mr. Belin. So you would be in the aisle, as you faced the screen, which would be to the left of the center row of seats?

Mr. Walker. That's right.

Mr. Belin. Okay; just tell what happened.

Mr. Walker. There were two white males sitting approximately in the center of the show. The lights had come on, and I don't know at what point they come on.

Mr. Belin. About how many people was seated down on the first floor?

Mr. Walker. There were two in the middle, and then there was Oswald, who turned out to be Oswald—I didn't know at that time it was him—and two behind him, I believe. I think there was one in the aisle, in the seats to the right of the right aisle. I don't know how you describe it, south of the south aisle, what I call it.

Mr. Belin. You were coming up the north aisle?

Mr. Walker. And this other person was sitting over on the other side of the show.

Mr. Belin. Do you recall then a total of six people?

Mr. Walker. That is all I recall seeing.

Mr. Belin. The people behind the man that you later found out to be Oswald, how far were they behind?

Mr. Walker. They were about three or four or five seats behind him.

Mr. Belin. In what row were they?

Mr. Walker. I believe they were in the last row, or maybe the next to the last.

Mr. Belin. What row was Oswald in, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. Walker. The best I recall, fourth or fifth aisle from me, from the back.

Mr. Belin. Fourth or fifth row from the back?

Mr. Walker. Yes.

Mr. Belin. All right, now, you mentioned there were two people sitting together in the center?

Mr. Walker. Yes.

Mr. Belin. You came up and approached those people?

Mr. Walker. McDonald approached them from the——

Mr. Belin. Right?

Mr. Walker. Right center aisle, and I approached from the left center aisle.

Mr. Belin. Did you have your gun drawn?

Mr. Walker. I had it drawn, and I put it back in my holster.

Mr. Belin. Why did you do that?

Mr. Walker. I had to search him. As I got up to him, we had him stand up and we searched him with their hands up, and I had my gun in the holster. I searched the one on the left, and McDonald searched the one on the right.

Mr. Belin. Were you looking at other people?

Mr. Walker. I looked around. Of course, I didn't recognize anybody. I didn't know who they were.

Mr. Belin. Then what?

Mr. Walker. I walked back up to the aisle that I had been going down, and McDonald walked out the aisle he had been walking down, and we approached the aisle where Oswald was sitting. McDonald approached him from his aisle, and Hutson, which was in front of me on the same aisle, had started in the seat toward Oswald, in the seat that runs behind him.

Mr. Belin. You mean the row of seats that ran behind him?

39 Mr. Walker. And he started down that way, and I was walking toward him slightly behind him in the same row of seats that Oswald was sitting.

Mr. Belin. So you approached Oswald from Oswald's left, and McDonald approached Oswald from Oswald's right?

Mr. Walker. That's right.

Mr. Belin. Was Oswald sitting closer to McDonald, or you?

Mr. Walker. Closer to McDonald. He was sitting in the third seat from McDonald's aisle.

Mr. Belin. All right, then, what happened?

Mr. Walker. McDonald approached him, and he said, I don't know exactly, I assumed he said, "Stand up!" And Oswald stood up.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear Oswald say anything?

Mr. Walker. No.

Mr. Belin. Was Oswald facing you as he stood up?

Mr. Walker. No; he faced McDonald.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Walker. He put his hand up, not exactly as you would raise your hands to be searched, but more or less showing off his muscles, what I call it, kind of hunching his shoulders at the same time, and McDonald put his hand down to Oswald's pocket, it looked like to me, and McDonald's head was tilted slightly to the right, looking down in the right hand.

Mr. Belin. Looking in whose?

Mr. Walker. McDonald's right hand as he was searching, and he felt of his pocket, and Oswald then hit him, it appeared, with his left hand first, and then with his right hand. They was scuffling there, and Officer Hutson and I ran toward the back of Oswald and Hutson threw his arm around his neck, and I grabbed his left arm, and we threw him back over the seat.

At this time I didn't see any gun that was involved. I don't know whether we pulled Oswald away from McDonald for a split second or what, but he was thrown back against the seat, and then the next thing I saw, Oswald's hand was down on the gun in his belt there, and McDonald had came forward again and was holding his, Oswald's hand.

Mr. Belin. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you see by his belt?

Mr. Walker. I saw his right hand. I had his left hand, you see.

Mr. Belin. When you saw Oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you see then?

Mr. Walker. He had ahold of the handle of it.

Mr. Belin. Handle of what?

Mr. Walker. The revolver.

Mr. Belin. Was there a revolver there?

Mr. Walker. Yes; there was.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Walker. And it stayed there for a second or two. He didn't get it out. McDonald had come forward and was holding his hand.

Ray Hawkins was behind me to my left at that time, and whether or not he came at the same time we did or not, but he was there, and there was a detective.

Oswald had ahold of my shirt and he practically pulled off my nameplate by gripping it with his hand, and I was bent over, and I was in an awkward position, and I could see several hands on the gun.

The gun finally got out of his belt, and it was about waist high and pointed out at about a 45° angle.

I turned around and I was holding Oswald trying to get his arm up behind him in a hammerlock, and I heard it click. I turned around and the gun was still pointing at approximately a 45° angle. Be pointed slightly toward the screen, what I call.

Now Hawkins was in the general direction of the gun.

Mr. Belin. When you heard a click, what kind of click was it?

Mr. Walker. A real light click, real light.

Mr. Belin. Was it a click of the seat?

Mr. Walker. Well, I assume it was a click of a revolver on the shell, and40 that is when the gun was doing the most moving around. It was moving around in the general area, and they were still fighting. And some one said, "Let go of the gun," and Oswald said, "I can't."

And a detective, I don't recall who it was, there were so many people around by that time, the area was bursting with policemen, and it appeared to me that he reached over and pulled the gun away from everybody, pulled it away from everyone, best I can recall.

Mr. Belin. Okay, what happened then?

Mr. Walker. Ray Hawkins was on my left. He said, "Bring his arm around," and said, "I have the handcuffs."

He said, "Bring his arm around so I can get the cuffs on him."

I finally got his left arm around and I snapped the cuffs on it, and Hawkins went over the seat there and picked up, someone pulled his right arm around there, and Hawkins snapped the handcuffs on him, and turned him around and faced him, Oswald, north.

And Detective Bentley got on his left arm and I took his right arm, and we went out the aisle that I, which would be the left aisle, that I had came in, with Oswald, and walked him out the front.

He was hollering, "I protest this police brutality."

Mr. Belin. All right. Let me ask you this. What is the fact as to whether you had seen police officers hitting Oswald?

Mr. Walker. The only person I saw was McDonald. They were exchanging blows, and if he actually came in contact. He was to my back.

Mr. Belin. Did you see anyone other than McDonald hit Oswald?

Mr. Walker. No; I didn't.

Mr. Belin. Did you hit Oswald?

Mr. Walker. No; I didn't.

Mr. Belin. Did Hutson hit Oswald?

Mr. Walker. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. Belin. All right, go ahead. Did Oswald say, "I am not resisting arrest"? Do you remember him saying that at all, or don't you remember?

Mr. Walker. The only thing he said later, I know, was, "I fought back there, but I know I wasn't supposed to be carrying a gun."

Mr. Belin. In any event, you brought him down the lobby of the theatre?

Mr. Walker. When we went out the front door, he started hollering, "I protest this police brutality."

People out there were hollering, "Kill the s.o.b." "Let us have him. We want him."

Mr. Belin. At that time, did anyone connect him with the assassination of the President?

Mr. Walker. Not unless the crowd had assumed that is who we were after, I don't know.

Mr. Belin. When you were after him, you were after him for what?

Mr. Walker. For the killing of Officer Tippit.

Mr. Belin. All right, go ahead.

Mr. Walker. There was a plain car, police car out in front. The right door was open, and Bentley went in first, and Oswald come and then I. We sat in the back seat with him.

Sgt. Jerry Hill in the front, and two more detectives that I don't know who they were, that rode down, too.

There were five officers and Oswald in the car. We took him down.

Mr. Belin. Any conversation take place? First of all, anything up until the time you got in the car that you think is important in any way?

Mr. Walker. Not that I recall, no.

Mr. Belin. All right, you got in the car and went down to the police station?

Mr. Walker. As we were driving down there, yes; he said——

Mr. Belin. Who was he?

Mr. Walker. Oswald said, "What is this all about?" He was relating this all the time. He said, "I know my rights." That is what he was saying, "I know my rights."

And we told him that the police officer, that he was under arrest because the police officer, he was suspected in the murder of a police officer.

41 And he said, "Police officer been killed?"

And nobody said nothing. He said, "I hear they burn for murder."

And I said, "You might find out."

And he said, "Well, they say it just takes a second to die."

And that is all I recall.

Now we talked some more going down, but that is the thing that I recall.

Mr. Belin. Do you recall any other conversation that you had with him, or not?

Mr. Walker. No; he was just denying it, and he was saying that all he did was carry a gun, and the reason he fought back in the theatre is, he knew he wasn't supposed to be carrying a gun, and he had never been to jail.

Mr. Belin. Did he say anything about why he was at the theatre?

Mr. Walker. No.

Mr. Belin. Did he say why he was carrying the gun?

Mr. Walker. No; he didn't.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember what clothes he had on?

Mr. Walker. He had on a white T-shirt under a brown shirt, and a pair of black pants.

Mr. Belin. How would you describe Oswald? About how tall?

Mr. Walker. About 5'8" about 150 pounds, or 155 pounds, something like that.

Mr. Belin. What color hair?

Mr. Walker. I would say sandy, the best I can recall.

Mr. Belin. Sandy, by that, you mean blond?

Mr. Walker. Darker than blonde. I just don't recall this for sure.

Mr. Belin. Some shade of brown?

Mr. Walker. It wasn't what you call blond. It was darker than blond, in my opinion.

Mr. Belin. Was it some shade of brown?

Mr. Walker. Yes; the best I can recall.

Mr. Belin. Anything else about him on your way to the police station?

Mr. Walker. He was real calm. He was extra calm. He wasn't a bit excited or nervous or anything. That was all the conversation I can recall going down.

Mr. Belin. After you got down there, what did you do with him?

Mr. Walker. We took him up the homicide and robbery bureau, and we went back there, and one of the detectives said put him in this room.

I put him in the room, and he said, "Let the uniform officers stay with him." And I went inside, and Oswald sat down, and he was handcuffed with his hands behind him.

I sat down there, and I had his pistol, and he had a card in there with a picture of him and the name A. J. Hidell on it.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember what kind of card it was?

Mr. Walker. Just an identification card. I don't recall what it was.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Walker. And I told him, "That is your real name, isn't it?"

Mr. Belin. He—had he earlier told you his name was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. Walker. I believe he had.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Walker. And he said, "No, that is not my real name."

And I started talking to him and I asked him, I said, "Why did you kill the officer?"

And he just looked at me. And I said, "Did you kill the officer because you were scared of being arrested for something?"

And he said, "I am not ascared of anything. Do I look like I am scared now?"

Mr. Belin. Did he look like he was scared?

Mr. Walker. No; he didn't look like he was scared. He was calm. Not a bit nervous.

Mr. Belin. Any other thing that you can remember that took place during that time that he was with you?

Mr. Walker. No; I can't recall.

Mr. Belin. Were you asked ever to make a report of any conversation you had with him?

Mr. Walker. No; they called me on the phone a couple of days after, and some42 supervisor asked me, there had been a rumor got out that Oswald had said, "Well, I got me a President and a cop. I should have got me two more." Or something like that.

But that conversation was never said, because I was with him from the time that he was arrested until the time the detectives took him over.

I made a written report on the arrest about a week after it happened, and that is the only conversation I had with anyone.

Mr. Belin. In that report you didn't put any conversation that Oswald had, did you?

Mr. Walker. No; I didn't put any conversation. I just put the details of the arrest.

Mr. Belin. Were you asked just to make a report on your arrest of Oswald?

Mr. Walker. That is normal procedure, just what we call a "Dear Chief" letter.

Just describe the arrest and other officers involved, and we never did put what conversation we had.

Mr. Belin. Anything else that Oswald said in your presence, or that you said to him?

Mr. Walker. Not that I recall.

Mr. Belin. At any time prior to the time you left him, did you find out he was a suspect in the assassination?

Mr. Walker. When I got to the jail office and talk was going there that he was the suspect.

Mr. Belin. Did you ask him any questions about the assassination?

Mr. Walker. No; I didn't tie him in at that time with the actual killing of the President.

Mr. Belin. Is there anything else you can think of now that might be relevant?

Mr. Walker. No.

Mr. Belin. Now we chatted a little bit at the beginning prior to this deposition, and you said that you knew Officer Tippit, is that correct?

Mr. Walker. Yes.

Mr. Belin. How long had you known Officer Tippit?

Mr. Walker. Ever since I have been on the police department. When I first came to work, I was assigned to the Oak Cliff substation and worked there until I went to traffic investigation, and he was there all the time.

I am sure I worked with him when I first started out and was training and stuff like that. But I had worked with him prior to his death for, I know, maybe 2 or 3 years.

Mr. Belin. Now at the time of the Tippit shooting, there had been no call for Lee Harvey Oswald as an individual, although there was a call for—I mean there was an announcement of a general description of the suspect in the assassination?

Mr. Walker. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Just from your knowledge of the way Tippit operated, do you have any reason to think whether that general call might have affected his perhaps stopping this man on the street at the time of the shooting?

Mr. Walker. I believe the type of officer Tippit was, that he was suspicious of him as a suspect.

Mr. Belin. Why do you believe that?

Mr. Walker. Well, Officer Tippit was an exceptional officer. He made good arrests. It was known around the station that he was exceptionally good with investigative work and just general police work. He was above normal.

Mr. Belin. Why do you think he stopped this man?

Mr. Walker. I believe that the description given on the radio, that he probably stopped just to check him out as a general procedure, as we do.

Mr. Belin. Well, if he stopped him for that reason, this man, he would have stopped him because the man was a suspect for perhaps the assassination, why wouldn't he have had his gun out when he stopped him?

Mr. Walker. Well, there are a lot of people of that description, and it is just not police practice to pull your gun on a person because he fits the description of someone, unless you are positive almost that it is the suspect. You just don't do it.

43 Mr. Belin. Let me ask you, did you have anything to do on November 22, or anything more to do on November 22, with either the Tippit shooting or investigation or apprehension of Oswald or the assassination of the President's investigation?

Mr. Walker. No. I stayed down in Captain Westbrook's office for a while until I got off.

Mr. Belin. How about November 23, did you have anything to do that day?

Mr. Walker. That would have been Saturday.

Mr. Belin. Or did you work on Saturday?

Mr. Walker. Yes, I worked on Saturday. I didn't follow up on any investigation of any kind.

Mr. Belin. Were you going back to accident investigation?

Mr. Walker. Yes, I went back to the accident investigation.

Mr. Belin. You didn't have anything to do with anything connected with the assassination after November 22?

Mr. Walker. No.

Mr. Belin. Is there anything that we haven't covered here that you can think of at this time, Officer Walker?

Mr. Walker. Not that I can think of. It's been a long time, and I just don't recall. I think there was more conversation with Oswald, but I can't recall all of it. I just remember what I considered the high points of it.

Mr. Belin. Did he ever ask for a lawyer in your presence?

Mr. Walker. I don't recall. I think he said—I know he was repeating, "I know my rights." I don't recall him actually asking for a lawyer.

Mr. Belin. Did he say where he got the gun?

Mr. Walker. No, he didn't say where he got the gun.

Mr. Belin. Did he admit that it was his gun?

Mr. Walker. Never did ask him actually whether it was his gun. He said he knew he was carrying a gun and he wasn't supposed to, so I assumed it was his gun.

Mr. Belin. Well, we certainly appreciate your taking the time to come down here to testify before us, and we want to thank you very much for your cooperation.

Mr. Walker. Okay. I know you've got a problem here.

Mr. Belin. Have I asked you whether or not you care to read the deposition? I don't believe I have. You have an opportunity here to either read the deposition and then sign it, or else waive the signing of it and have the court reporter, Helen Laidrich, send it directly to us in Washington?

Mr. Walker. I will go ahead and sign it.

Mr. Belin. All right, Miss Laidrich will get in touch with you at the Dallas Police Department, I assume.

Mr. Walker. Yes. Do you want me to sign it now?

Mr. Belin. I am talking about when she gets it typed up. Do you want to read it or have her send it to us directly?

Mr. Walker. Do I have to come, down here to read it here?

Mr. Belin. Yes, you have to come down and read it here.

Mr. Walker. I will come down and read it and sign it.

Mr. Belin. All right, fine. Thank you, sir.

TESTIMONY OF GERALD LYNN HILL

The testimony of Gerald Lynn Hill was taken at 4:15 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Belin. Sergeant, would you stand and raise your right hand, please.

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

44 Mr. Hill. I do.

Mr. Belin. All right. Sergeant, could you please state your name.

Mr. Hill. Gerald Lynn Hill.

Mr. Belin. What is your occupation?

Mr. Hill. Sergeant in the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. Belin. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. Hill. Since March 7, 1955.

Mr. Belin. How old are you, Sergeant Hill?

Mr. Hill. Thirty-four.

Mr. Belin. Where were you born?

Mr. Hill. Ferris, Tex.

Mr. Belin. Did you go to school there?

Mr. Hill. No, sir; I went to school in Dallas.

Mr. Belin. How far did you get through school?

Mr. Hill. Went through high school.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do when you got out of high school?

Mr. Hill. Went to work for the Dallas Times Herald. Worked there from January of 1948 until April of 1954.

At the time I resigned there, I was radio-television editor for the paper.

Went from there to the Dallas Bureau of WBAP-TV in Fort Worth, and worked for them until March the 21st, 1958.

The last 2 weeks I was working for them, I was attending the police academy for the police department.

Mr. Belin. Then you went in the police department?

Mr. Hill. I went with the police prior to quitting. I turned in my notice with WBAP and they let me work it out while I attended the police school, because I was actually hired on a Saturday, and the police school started on Monday, and I wanted to leave on good terms with one place and start to school on time with the other, so they worked out an agreement with me.

Mr. Belin. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. Belin. Where were you on duty?

Mr. Hill. I was on special assignment, detached from the police patrol division, and assigned to the police personnel office investigating applicants for the police department.

Mr. Belin. Where was this?

Mr. Hill. On that particular day, I was at the city hall in the personnel office, and did not have an assignment of any kind pertaining to the President's trip or any other function other than the investigation of police applicants.

Mr. Belin. When did you leave the city hall?

Mr. Hill. The President had passed the corner of Commerce or—excuse me, Main and Harwood, turned off Harwood onto Main, and proceeded west on Main.

I had watched it from the personnel office window, which is on the third floor of the police and courts building, and Capt. W. R. Westbrook, who was my commander, had apparently been on the streets watching the parade, and he came back in and we were discussing some facts about how fast it passed and the police unit in it, and we had seen the chief's car in it, and how Mrs. Kennedy was dressed, and we were sitting in the office when a lady by the name of Kemmey, I believe is the way she spelled it, came in and said that the President had been shot at Main and Lamar.

Our first reaction was one of disbelief, but a minute later—she just made the statement and walked out—and a minute later Captain Westbrook said, "She wasn't kidding."

And I said, "When she you mean?"

And he said, "When she is kidding, she can't keep a straight face."

And figuring it was true, the dispatcher's office would be packed to the gills, so I walked down to the far end of the hall on the third floor where there is an intercom box connected to the radio from the dispatcher's office, and also you can hear the field side of the intercom of anything that is said to the police radio, and this is down in the press room.

I stood there for a minute and I heard a voice which I am almost sure was45 Inspector Sawyer—but being I didn't see a broadcast, I couldn't say for sure—saying we think we have located the building where the shots were fired from at Elm and Houston Streets, and send us some help.

At this time I went back to the personnel office and told the captain that Inspector Sawyer requested assistance at Elm and Houston Streets. The captain said, "Go ahead and go."

And he turned to another man in the office named Joe Fields and told him to get on down there.

I got on the elevator on the third floor and went to the basement and saw a uniformed officer named Jim M. Valentine, and I asked Jim what he was doing, and he said, "Nothing in particular."

And I said, "I need you to take me down to Elm Street."

"The President has been shot."

We started out of the basement to get in his car, and a boy named Jim E. Well, with the Dallas Morning News, had parked his car in the basement and was walking up and asked what was going on, and we told him the President was shot.

And he said, "Where are you going?"

And we said, "Down to Elm and Houston where they think the shots came from."

And he said, "Could I go with you?"

So we took him in the back seat of the car. And I don't remember what the number was.

We came out of the basement on Commerce, went to Central, turned left, went over on Elm, ran into a traffic jam on Elm, went down as far as Pearl Street and turned back to the left on Pearl and went to Jackson Street, went west on Jackson to Houston Street, and turned back to the right and pulled up in front of the Book Depository at Elm and Houston, jumped out of the car and Inspector Sawyer was there.

I asked him did he have enough men outside to cover the building properly, and he said, "Yes; I believe so."

And I said, "Are you ready for us to go in and shake it down?"

And he said, "Yes, let's go in and check it out."

About this time Captain Fritz and two or three more detectives from homicide, a boy named Roy Westphal, who works for the special service bureau, and a couple of uniformed officers, and a couple of deputy sheriffs came up.

Now you identified them to me the other day, the two boys that were on the sixth floor from the sheriff's office.

Mr. Belin. I think when we chatted briefly the other day, I believe I said Boone and Mooney. Does that sound familiar?

Mr. Hill. I wouldn't know, but I know they identified themselves to us as deputy sheriffs, and some more people knew them.

So we went into the building, and Captain Fritz and his men said they would start at the first floor and work up, and they asked several of us to go to the top floor and work down.

We went up to the seventh floor on the elevator and I believe the elevator ran to the sixth, and we cut around the stairway and got to seven and shook it down.

At this time there were the two deputy sheriffs and I and one uniformed officer up there.

Mr. Belin. You went to the top floor of the building?

Mr. Hill. Right.

Mr. Belin. Do you know whether or not the elevator went all the way up, or did you climb?

Mr. Hill. I think we climbed a flight of stairs. In fact, I am almost sure.

Mr. Belin. Do you think you climbed a flight of stairs because the elevator went no further?

Mr. Hill. I think it either went to fifth or sixth, but I am almost positive it didn't go to seventh. I may be wrong, but I didn't particularly take notice.

But I think they told us we were going to have to walk up a couple of flights because the elevator didn't go all the way.

Mr. Belin. Where did you take this elevator?

46 Mr. Hill. Walked in the front door of the Book Depository and turned to the right. Took the passenger elevator. We did not take the freight elevator. The freight elevator goes all the way, I believe.

Mr. Belin. You took a passenger elevator?

Mr. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Belin. When you got off the passenger elevator, what did you do?

Mr. Hill. We asked them where the stairway was to the top floor, and if this was on the fifth, we walked through—there is a little office section near the elevator. We walked over past it and through a large room to the stairway, and then went all the way as high as the stairway would take us, which would have been on seven.

In the middle of the floor on the seventh floor there was a ladder leading up into an area they called the penthouse, which was used mainly for storage.

Westphal went up this ladder, I know, and the uniformed officer went up it.

The rest of us were checking around the boxes and books.

So on file we verified that there was not anyone on the seventh floor, and we didn't find any indication that the shots had been fired from there.

Mr. Belin. Then what did you do?

Mr. Hill. Left the uniformed officer there, and these two deputies and I went down to sixth.

I started to the right side of the building.

Mr. Belin. When you say the right side, you mean——

Mr. Hill. Well, it would have been the west side.

Mr. Belin. All right, they moved over to the east side?

Mr. Hill. We hadn't been there but a minute until someone yelled, "Here it is," or words to that effect.

I moved over and found they had found an area where the boxes had been stacked in sort of a triangle shape with three sides over near the window.

Two small boxes with Roller books on the side of the carton were stacked near the east side of the window.

Mr. Belin. Let's talk about which window now, sir. First of all, what side of the building? Was it on the north, east, south, or west?

Mr. Hill. It would have been on the south side near the east wall. It would have been the window on the southeast corner of the building facing south.

Mr. Belin. Would it have been the first window next to the east wall or the second window, or what, if you remember?

Mr. Hill. As near as I can remember, it was the first window next to the east wall, but here again it is—I stayed up there such a short time that—yes, that is the one I am going to have to say it was, because as near as I can remember, that is the one it was.

Mr. Belin. What did you see over there?

Mr. Hill. There was the boxes. The boxes were stacked in sort of a three-sided shield.

That would have concealed from general view, unless somebody specifically walked up and looked over them, anyone who was in a sitting or crouched position between them and the window. In front of this window and to the left or east corner of the window, there were two boxes, cardboard boxes that had the words "Roller books," on them.

On top of the larger stack of boxes that would have been used for concealment, there was a chicken leg bone and a paper sack which appeared to have been about the size normally used for a lunch sack. I wouldn't know what the sizes were. It was a sack, I would say extended, it would probably be 12 inches high, 10 inches long, and about 4 inches thick.

Then, on the floor near the baseboard or against the baseboard of the south wall of the building, in front of the second window, in front of the, well, we would have to say second window from the east corner, were three spent shells.

This is actually the jacket that holds the powder and not the slug. At this point, I asked the deputy sheriff to guard the scene, not to let anybody touch anything, and I went over still further west to another window about the middle of the building on the south side and yelled down to the street for them to send us the crime lab. Not knowing or not getting any indication from the street47 that they heard me, I asked the deputies again to guard the scene and I would go down and make sure that the crime lab was en route.

When I got toward the back, at this time I heard the freight elevator moving, and I went back to the back of the building to either catch the freight elevator or the stairs, and Captain Fritz and his men were coming up on the elevator.

I told him what we found and pointed out the general area, pointed out the deputies to them, and told him also that I was going to make sure the crime lab was en route.

About the time I got to the street, Lieutenant Day from the crime lab was arriving and walking up toward the front door. I told him that the area we had found where the shots were fired from was on the sixth floor on the southeast corner, and that they were guarding the scene so nobody would touch anything until he got there. And he said, "All right."

And he went on into the building, and I went over to tell Inspector Sawyer, who was standing almost directly in front of the building across the little service drive there at what would actually be Elm and Houston. About this time I saw a firetruck come up, but I didn't pay any attention.

I was talking to Inspector Sawyer, telling him what we found, when Sgt. C. B. Owens of Oak Cliff—he was the senior sergeant out there that day, and actually acting lieutenant—came up and wanted to know what we wanted him to do, being that he had been dispatched to the scene.

Mr. Belin. Let me stop you right there. Who dispatched him to the scene?

Mr. Hill. Apparently the dispatcher. Now his call number that day could have been 19.

Mr. Belin. Okay, go ahead, Sergeant Hill.

Mr. Hill. We were standing there with Inspector Sawyer and Assistant District Attorney Bill Alexander came up to us, and we had been standing there for a minute when we heard the strange voice on the police radio that said something to the effect that, if I remember right, either the first call that came out said that they were in the 400 block of East Jefferson, and that an officer had been shot, and the voice on the radio, whoever it was, said he thought he was dead.

At this point Sergeant Owens said something to the effect that this would have been one of his men. And prior, on our way to the location from the city hall, a description had been broadcast of a possible suspect in the assassination.

With the description, as I remember, it was a white male, 5'8", 160 pounds, wearing a jacket, a light shirt, dark trousers, and sort of bushy brown hair. Captain Sawyer said, "Well, as much help as we have here, why don't you go with Sergeant Owens to Oak Cliff on that detail." And Bill Alexander said, "Well, if it is all right, I will go with you." And the reporter, Jim Ewell, came up, and I said an officer had been shot in Oak Cliff, and he wanted to go with us also.

In the process of getting the location straight, and I think it was at this point I was probably using 19 call number, because I was riding with him, we got the information correctly that the shooting had actually been on East 10th, and we were en route there.

We crossed the Commerce Street viaduct and turned, made a right turn to go under the viaduct on North Beckley to go up to 10th Street. As we passed, just before we got to Colorado on Beckley, an ambulance with a police car behind it passed us en route to Methodist Hospital.

We went on to the scene of the shooting where we found a squad car parked against the right or the south curb on 10th Street, with a pool of blood on the left-hand side of it near the side of the car.

Tippit had already been removed. The first man that came up to me, he said, "The man that shot him was a white male about 5'10", weighing 160 to 170 pounds, had on a jacket and a pair of dark trousers, and brown bushy hair."

At this point the first squad rolled up, and that would have been squad 105, which had been dispatched from downtown. An officer named Joe Poe, and I believe his partner was a boy named Jez.

I told him to stay at the scene and guard the car and talk to as many witnesses as they could find to the incident, and that we were going to start checking the area.

48 Mr. Belin. Now, let me interrupt you here, sergeant. Do you remember the name of the person that gave you the description?

Mr. Hill. No. I turned him over to Poe, and I didn't even get his name.

Mr. Belin. Had anyone at anytime given you any cartridge cases of any kind?

Mr. Hill. No; they had not. This came much later.

Mr. Belin. Go ahead if you would, please.

Mr. Hill. All right, I took the key to Poe's car. Another person came up, and we also referred him to Poe, that told us the man had run over into the funeral home parking lot. That would be Dudley Hughes' parking lot in the 400 block of East Jefferson—and taken off his jacket.

Mr. Belin. You turned this man over to Poe, too?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. I notice in the radio log transcript, which is marked Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, that at 1:26 p.m., between 1:26 p.m., and 1:32 p.m., there was a call from No. 19 to 531. 531 is your home number, I believe? Your radio home station?

Mr. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Belin. That says, "One of the men here at the service station that saw him seems to think he is in this block, 400 block East Jefferson, behind his service station. Give me some more squads over here." "Several squads check out." Was that you?

Mr. Hill. That was Owens.

Mr. Belin. Were you calling in at all?

Mr. Hill. No. That is Bud Owens.

Mr. Belin. You had left Owens' car at this time?

Mr. Hill. I left Owens' car and had 105 car at this time.

Mr. Belin. Where did you go?

Mr. Hill. At this time, about the time this broadcast came out, I went around and met Owens. I whipped around the block. I went down to the first intersection east of the block where all this incident occurred, and made a right turn, and traveled one block, and came back up on Jefferson.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Hill. And met Owens in front of two large vacant houses on the north side of Jefferson that are used for the storage of secondhand furniture.

By then Owens had information also that some citizen had seen the man running towards these houses.

At this time Sergeant Owens was there; I was there; Bill Alexander was there; it was probably about this time that C. T. Walker, an accident investigator got there; and with Sergeant Owens and Walker and a couple more officers standing outside, Bill Alexander and I entered the front door of the house that would have been to the west—it was the farthest to the west of the two—shook out the lower floor, made sure nobody was there, and made sure that all the entrances from either inside or outside of the building to the second floor were securely locked.

Then we went back over to the house next door, which would have been the first one east of this one, and made sure it was securely locked, both upstairs and downstairs. There was no particular sign of entry on this building at all. At this point we came back out to the street, and I asked had Owens received any information from the hospital on Tippit.

And he said they had just told him on channel 2 that he was dead. I got back in 105's car, went back around to the original scene, gave him his car keys back, and left his car there, and at this point he came up to me with a Winston cigarette package.

Mr. Belin. Who was this?

Mr. Hill. This was Poe.

Mr. Belin. You went back to the Tippit scene?

Mr. Hill. Right.

Mr. Belin. You went back to 400 East 10th Street?

Mr. Hill. Right. And Poe showed me a Winston cigarette package that contained three spent jackets from shells that he said a citizen had pointed out to him where the suspect had reloaded his gun and dropped these in the49 grass, and that the citizen had picked them up and put them in the Winston package.

I told Poe to maintain the chain of evidence as small as possible, for him to retain these at that time, and to be sure and mark them for evidence, and then turn them over to the crime lab when he got there, or to homicide.

The next place I went was, I walked up the street about half a block to a church. That would have been on the northeast corner of 10th Street in the 400 block, further west of the shooting, and was preparing to go in when there were two women who came out and said they were employees inside and had been there all the time. I asked them had they seen anybody enter the church, because we were still looking for possible places for the suspect to hide. And they said nobody passed them, nobody entered the church, but they invited us to check the rest of the doors and windows and go inside if we wanted to.

An accident investigator named Bob Apple was at the location at that time, and we were standing there together near his car when the call came out that the suspect had been seen entering the Texas Theatre.

Mr. Belin. What did you do then?

Mr. Hill. We both got in Apple's car and went to Jefferson, made a right on Jefferson, headed west from our location, and pulled up as close to the front of the theatre as we could. There were already two or three officers at the location. I asked if it was covered off at the back.

They said, "We got the building completely covered off."

I entered the right or the east most door to the south side of the theatre, and in the process or in the meantime, from the time we heard the first call to the time we got to the theatre, the call came on over the radio that the suspect was believed to be in the balcony.

We went up to the balcony, ran up the stairs, which would have been also on the east side. And the picture was still on. I remember yelling to either the manager or the assistant manager or an employee, maybe just an usher, to turn on as many lights as they could. Went up to the balcony, and Detective Bentley was up there, and a uniform officer, and here again there was another deputy sheriff. He was a uniform man.

There were some six people in the balcony, and we checked them out and none of them appeared to fit the physical description that we had of the man that shot Tippit.

I went over and opened the fire escape door or fire exit door and stepped out on the fire escape, and Capt. C. E. Talbert was down on the ground. He said, "Did you find anything?"

And I said, "Not up here."

He said, "Have you checked the roof?"

There was a ladder leading from the fire escape that goes on up to the top of the roof, and the deputy sheriff said, "I will get that for you." And he started up it.

The captain said words to the effect that, "Make sure you don't overlook him in there." So we went back inside and we didn't find him in the balcony. We started downstairs and these would have been the west stairs on the west side of the balcony. About the time I got to the lower floor, I heard a shout similar to a "I've got him," which came from the lower floor. And I ran through the west door from the lobby into the downstairs part of the theatre proper.

Mr. Belin. Let me stop you right there. When you say it is the west door, as I remember this theatre, the entrance faces to the south, is that correct?

Mr. Hill. Right.

Mr. Belin. But then when you walked in, you walked in straight headed north, and then you had to turn to the right?

Mr. Hill. So once you turned, I went up. That would have made me come down the north, go up the south stairway to the balcony, and come down the north stairway.

Mr. Belin. All right. Now, you got down to the first floor. As you go in to face the screen, the right side of the theatre when you are facing the screen, you are facing roughly east?

Mr. Hill. Right side of the theatre would have been south.

50 Mr. Belin. South as you face the screen. All right, now.

Mr. Hill. So I went through the north lower door.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Hill. Came down the north stairway, and the commotion would have been to my right or just south of the center of the theatre near the back. Went over, and as I ran to them I saw some officers struggling with a white male.

I reached out and grabbed the left arm of the suspect, and just before I got to him I heard somebody yell, "Look out, he's got a gun."

I was on the same row with the suspect. The man on the row immediately behind him was an officer named Hutson. McDonald was on the other side of the suspect from me in the same aisle.

Two officers, C. T. Walker and Ray Hawkins, were in the row in front of us holding the suspect from the front and forcing him backwards and down into the seat. And to McDonald's right reaching over, and I don't recall which row he was on, was an officer named Bob Carroll. And then Paul Bentley and K. E. Lyons, who was Carroll's partner, they were both in the special service bureau, also was there. They came up at various intervals while all this was going on.

We finally got the man subdued to the point where we had control of him and his legs pinned and his arms pinned. I said, "Let's handcuff him." And being that I was working in plainclothes and working in personnel, didn't have a pair of handcuffs, and I asked Hawkins if he had. And he said, "Yes."

And I said, "Let's get them."

And Hawkins and I handcuffed him while the others held him.

Mr. Belin. You said you were working in plainclothes?

Mr. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Did you have any hat on?

Mr. Hill. Yes; I did have a hat.

Mr. Belin. I want to hand you what I will mark as G. L. Hill Deposition Exhibit A, and ask you to state if you know what this is.

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; this is a picture that was made about the time when we were actually putting the handcuffs on the suspect in the theatre. That may have been a split second before or a split second after, or right as we completed the putting on of the handcuffs.

Mr. Belin. Do you recognize any people in there?

Mr. Hill. This would have been the suspect [pointing].

Mr. Belin. Now, the suspect is a man who you can see parts of the profile from the left side of his face. He appears to be seated or lower than the others?

Mr. Hill. Lower than the other people in the picture.

Mr. Belin. Then there is a person with a hat on to the right.

Mr. Hill. To the immediate right of the suspect, and that is me.

Mr. Belin. Then there is a man with a cigar who is looking over the suspect?

Mr. Hill. That is Detective Paul Bentley.

Mr. Belin. Now there is a person with light-colored hair that appears to have his hands——

Mr. Hill. That would be C. T. Walker.

Mr. Belin. Then there is another person that is in the extreme left-foreground part of the picture. Do you know who that is?

Mr. Hill. Capt. W. R. Westbrook.

Mr. Belin. Then a party with a hat on. Do you know who that is?

Mr. Hill. I have no idea.

Mr. Belin. That is to the left?

Mr. Hill. No, sir.

Mr. Belin. Then there is, you can barely see maybe a police hat. Is that anything you can recognize?

Mr. Hill. Not from that; no, sir.

Mr. Belin. All right, go ahead, sir.

You say that you and Ray Hawkins handcuffed the suspect?

Mr. Hill. At about this time Captain Westbrook and a man who was later in the day identified to me as, I believe his name was Barnett, an FBI agent——

51 Mr. Belin. Would it be Barrett?

Mr. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember his first name?

Mr. Hill. Bob was identified to me later in the day by Captain Westbrook. Came in from, I presume they came in from the north fire exit, which would have actually been coming in from outside, and came over to us, and Captain Westbrook instructed us to get the man out of there as soon as possible.

And at the same time instructed some of the other uniform officers to stay there and protect the scene, and call the crime lab. This was the actual scene where the arrest was made.

Mr. Belin. Let me stop you right there. Do you know how this FBI agent happened to be there at the time?

Mr. Hill. I heard later, and—but not actually to my own knowledge, that he was riding with Captain Westbrook.

To my knowledge, I don't know this, but I understand he had ridden out from town with Captain Westbrook, that he was gravitating toward the incident in Oak Cliff, and had arrived at the theatre just possibly before we came in, or right after we went in, and was still outside.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Hill. We started moving the suspect down the aisle, which would have been walking him north to the exit on that side until we got to the aisle that would have been dividing the center section and the north section of the theatre.

And there we formed a more or less wedge formation with C. T. Walker in front, Bob Carroll, I believe was on the suspect's left, K. E. Lyons was on his right, and Paul Bentley and I were to the rear.

I was on the left. I would have been to the suspect's left-rear side.

Paul Bentley would have been to the right-rear side.

At this point this is the first time I remember encountering any newspapermen or cameras, but as we walked into the lobby there was a man shooting movies.

Mr. Belin. Movies?

Mr. Hill. He was from channel 8, but who he was, I don't know. He was a short, rather heavy-set fellow with kinky hair. This I remember about him.

We walked the suspect out the right front or the north door. No, wait a minute, we have lost our directions again. We walked him out the west door of the theatre into a squad car, which was out front. Some of the officers that were still outside had the crowd parted back to where nobody got to us or to the suspect.

But there were shouts at this time from the crowd of, "That is him. We ought to kill him. String him up. Hang him.", et cetera and so on.

Mr. Belin. Any other calls from the crowd?

Mr. Hill. Not that I can recall. There was quite a bit of confusion, but we kept moving.

Mr. Belin. Let me stop you right there. You mentioned that when you were coming down from the balcony to the first floor, or in the process of going into the first floor, you heard an officer or someone yell something along the effect, "I've got him."

Mr. Hill. Right.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear anyone else yell or make any other statements?

First, I will ask you this. Did you hear the suspect make any statement of any kind?

Mr. Hill. Not any distinguishable statement that I can specifically recall. Later in the course of trying to piece this thing together for a report, I believe it was McDonald and Hutson that stated, and we put it in the report that way, that the suspect yelled, "This is it."

Mr. Belin. Did you hear that with your own ears? That you can remember?

Mr. Hill. No, sir; not as a distinguishable specific "This is it," no.

As much confusion and all going on, I didn't distinguish that. Now if we can back up a little bit to where we made the, got him handcuffed in the theatre, before we started moving out with him, he started, Oswald or the suspect at this point, we didn't know who he was, so we will keep on calling him the suspect,52 started making statements about "I want a lawyer. I know my rights. Typical police brutality. Why are you doing this to me."

As as we continued to move him down the aisle out to the aisle dividing the two sections, out into the lobby of the theatre, he began yelling words similar to, "Typical police brutality."

And once we got actually outside the door of the theatre, from there to the period of time that we got to the car, with all the crowd and commotion and all, I don't recall any further statements of his until we got in the car.

Mr. Belin. All right, let me stop there before you testify about getting into the car. Do you have anything else to add to the statement prior to getting into the car?

Mr. Hill. Not that I can recall.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear the suspect say anything while you were trying to subdue him, or, "I am not resisting arrest?"

Mr. Hill. No; I don't recall a statement to that effect.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear any officer say anything to the suspect?

Mr. Hill. About the time we got him subdued and handcuffed, I know that Hutson asked me about did I hear the gun click.

Hutson was the one that was behind him and was pulling him backward, off balance. He was probably, as near as I could determine from the position, was probably the second officer to him.

In other words, McDonald made the initial contact, and then Hutson and then probably Walker and Hawkins with Walker, and then Hawkins, in that order, getting into the scuffle attempting to subdue him and keep him from using the gun.

Mr. Belin. What did you reply to this question?

Mr. Hill. I told him no. Because apparently this had happened in the interim from the time of the first yell until I got there, and with the scuffling of feet, unless you would be right at it, I don't know that you would hear it.

Mr. Belin. Did you hit the suspect at all?

Mr. Hill. No; I did not.

Mr. Belin. Did anyone else hit the suspect?

Mr. Hill. No one that I know of. When we got him subdued, he had a small laceration on the left eyebrow, and what appeared to be a bruise on the upper-left eyebrow and down along his check, but an actual lick, to see this done, I did not see.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear any police officer make any remark such as "Kill a policeman, will you," or something along that line?

Mr. Hill. No, sir; not at this point I didn't. There was a—you want——

Mr. Belin. Let's stop there before we get in the car.

Mr. Hill. There were some statements made in the car similar to this, in talking about killing a policeman, but I didn't hear any at the time in the theatre or from the theatre to the car.

Mr. Belin. I want to try to cut off this thing in segments. Did you hear any policeman make any other statements to him during this scuffle?

Mr. Hill. No; everybody was saying, "Look out," and "Get this arm," or "Watch that leg," or "Make sure you've got a good hold on him."

But as far as any direct quotes to the suspect, or him being called anything such as a cop killer or statements that you have killed a police officer, you have killed a cop, or anything of that type, I did not hear any.

Mr. Belin. Did you see the suspect hitting any police officer?

Mr. Hill. Did I see the suspect hitting a police officer?

Mr. Belin. Yes.

Mr. Hill. No, sir; I did not. I saw his left arm flying about wildly about the time when I got there. That is what I latched on to, but I didn't actually identify any direct blows.

Mr. Belin. Did you see any movements of the suspect other than the left arm flailing?

Mr. Hill. He was fighting and turning and making an attempt to free himself of the hold that the officers had on him. As to actually hitting anybody or to actually seeing the suspect with a gun in his hand, I did not.

53 Mr. Belin. I hand you what has been marked as "G. L. Hill Deposition Exhibit B." State if you know what this is.

Mr. Hill. This is known to be a picture that was made still inside the theatre as we were moving down the aisle, I believe, to get him to the aisle that divided the two sections.

Now specifically, the exact point in the theatre where this was made, I don't know.

Mr. Belin. Do you recognize anything?

Mr. Hill. There are three people in this picture that I recognize. The officer with the white uniform hat on that is in the foreground looking at the picture, would be to the left side, is C. T. Walker. The suspect, and what is an open collar, and what appears to be a T-shirt from here, looking almost directly at the camera with his face practically covered by the officer's cap, is a man later identified to us as Lee Harvey Oswald.

And the man in the suit looking at the camera with a cigar in his mouth is Detective Paul Bentley.

There is, to Mr. Bentley's left, part of another officer that is apparently wearing a suit with only part of his suit and his shirt and his left hand showing. That cannot be recognized, but I will have to admit I think it is me.

And there is a faint image there, if you get the light—that is what I am trying to see—very faintly—if we had a—yes, that is going to be me. What we need is to get the light in at an angle.

Mr. Belin. If you hold it a little bit to your right?

Mr. Hill. Yes; that is going to be me.

Mr. Belin. Do you know who this person is with the helmet at the extreme left of the person with the helmet?

Mr. Hill. I do not recognize him specifically, but just trying to identify that much of him, I would say it could be an officer named L. E. Gray, but I can't make positive identification.

Mr. Belin. Okay, sergeant.

By the way, what is the suspect wearing? You mentioned a T-shirt in the picture.

Do you remember what else he had on?

Mr. Hill. He had on a dark—I don't recall it being a solid brown—shirt, but it was a dark-brownish-looking sports shirt, and dark trousers. This I specifically remember.

Mr. Belin. Any jacket?

Mr. Hill. No, sir; he didn't have a jacket on at this time.

Mr. Belin. All right, go ahead.

Mr. Hill. I understand a light-colored jacket was found in the parking lot of the funeral home, as a man had previously stated, but I don't recall actually seeing this jacket.

Mr. Belin. All right, anything else that anyone else said prior to the time you got to the car?

Mr. Hill. Not that I can recall, sir; other than, as I was saying, as we went out, the crowd was jeering, making some threats and calling out things.

If at this time the suspect said anything, I didn't hear him.

And we were moving quite rapidly to get him into the car.

Mr. Belin. Handing you what has been marked "G. L. Hill Exhibit C," I will ask you to state if you know what this is?

Mr. Hill. This is a picture of the Texas Theatre on West Jefferson, and it is a picture that I believe was made after we left the location with the suspect.

Mr. Belin. Why do you say that?

Mr. Hill. Because the car that we left with the suspect in was parked right here.

Mr. Belin. You are pointing to a position ahead of the Dallas Police Car No. 151, which appears in the picture?

Mr. Hill. That's right.

Mr. Belin. Would that be about the size of the crowd that was there, as you remember it?

Mr. Hill. The crowd was split up into two groups at that time, on each side of the theatre entrance.

54 Mr. Belin. You mean by the time you brought the suspect out?

Mr. Hill. Yes; the area immediately in front of the theatre looking to the car was open at the time.

Mr. Belin. Who opened it?

Mr. Hill. The crowd had been kept back by some officers who had been left outside to cover off the front of the theatre when the rest of us entered.

Mr. Belin. Apart from the fact that the crowd was split when you led the suspect out, does this appear to be about the number of people there?

Mr. Hill. No, sir. I would say probably this picture appears to me to contain 75 to 100 people, and I would say probably at the time that we came out of the theatre, by just glancing on both sides as we moved between the two groups to the car, I would estimate the crowd was probably about 200.

Mr. Belin. All right; anything else up to the time you got to the car that anyone said or did that you haven't related, that you can remember now?

Mr. Hill. Not that I can recall, sir.

Mr. Belin. All right; now, let's pick up what happened from the time you started, with the time you opened the doors of the car to put the suspect in the car.

Mr. Hill. Officer Bentley—the suspect was put in the right rear door of the squad car and was instructed to move over to the middle. C. T. Walker got into the rear seat and would have been sitting on the right rear.

Paul Bentley went around the car and got in the left rear door and sat on that side.

Mr. Belin. That would have been from the left to the right, Bentley, Oswald, and Walker? Or Bentley, the suspect, and Walker?

Mr. Hill. K. E. Lyons got in the right front. I entered the door from the driver's side and got in the middle of the front seat.

Mr. Belin. And being that he had the keys to the car, Bob Carroll drove the vehicle.

Mr. Hill. As he started to get in the car, he handed me a pistol, which he identified as the one that had been taken from the suspect in the theatre.

Mr. Belin. When did he identify this to you?

Mr. Hill. I asked him was this his. He said, "No, it is the suspect's"

Mr. Belin. When did he do that?

Mr. Hill. As soon as he handed it to me.

Mr. Belin. When was that?

Mr. Hill. Right as I sat down in the car, he apparently had it in his belt, and as he started to sit down, he handed it to me. I was already in the car and seated.

Mr. Belin. Now I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 143. Would you state if you know what this is?

Mr. Hill. This is a .38 caliber revolver. Smith & Wesson, with a 2" barrel that would contain six shells. It is an older gun that has been blue steeled, and has a worn wooden handle.

Mr. Belin. Have you ever seen this gun before?

Mr. Hill. I am trying to see my mark on it to make sure, sir. I don't recall specifically where I marked it, but I did mark it, if this is the one. I don't remember where I did mark it, now.

Here it is, Hill right here, right in this crack.

Mr. Belin. Officer, you have just pointed out a place which I will identify as a metal portion running along the butt of the gun. Can you describe it any more fully?

Mr. Hill. It would be to the inside of the pistol grip holding the gun in the air. It would begin under the trigger guard to where the last name H-i-l-l is scratched in the metal.

Mr. Belin. Who put that name in there?

Mr. Hill. I did.

Mr. Belin. When did you do that?

Mr. Hill. This was done at approximately 4 p.m., the afternoon of Friday, November 22, 1963, in the personnel office of the police department.

Mr. Belin. Did you keep that gun in your possession until you scratched your name on it?

55 Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Belin. Was this gun the gun that Officer Carroll handed to you?

Mr. Hill. And identified to me as the suspect's weapon.

Mr. Belin. This is what has now been marked as Commission Exhibit 143, is that correct?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; that is what it says.

Mr. Belin. It also says the number on this sack in kind of a red ink or something "C15" on it, too, is that right?

Mr. Hill. It has C15, and on the other side it has 176-G, whatever that is.

Mr. Belin. And then we have marked Commission Exhibit 143?

Mr. Hill. Right.

Mr. Belin. Now, you said as the driver of the car, Bob Carroll, got in the car, he handed this gun to you?

Mr. Hill. Right, sir.

Mr. Belin. All right, then, would you tell us what happened? What was said and what was done?

Mr. Hill. Then I broke the gun open to see how many shells it contained and how many live rounds it had in it.

Mr. Belin. How many did you find?

Mr. Hill. There were six in the chambers of the gun. One of them had an indention in the primer that appeared to be caused by the hammer. There were five others. All of the shells at this time had indentions.

All of the shells appeared to have at one time or another scotch tape on them because in an area that would have been the width of a half inch strip of scotch tape, there was kind of a bit of lint and residue on the jacket of the shell.

Mr. Belin. Did you ever mark those?

Mr. Hill. I can say that I marked all six of them.

Mr. Belin. I am first going to hand you what has been marked Q-178 on the lead portion. It is 178 or 170. It appears to be Q-178, with the initials JH running together and CK, and then another initial R, with a dash behind it.

Do you see any identification mark of yours on there at all?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; on the side of the jacket of the bullet there is the name scratched H-i-l-l, and also the initials BC. I scratched the H-i-l-l on this shell, and Bob Carroll scratched the BC on it in my presence in the personnel office of the police department on the third floor.

Mr. Belin. What is that?

Mr. Hill. This is one of the shells which is a .38 special shell that was removed from the suspect's weapon, removed from the weapon that was taken from the suspect at the time of his arrest.

Mr. Belin. When was it removed?

Mr. Hill. They were not taken out of the gun, as I recall, sir, until we arrived at the station.

Mr. Belin. Who took it out of the gun?

Mr. Hill. I took it out of the gun.

Mr. Belin. Did you keep it in your possession until you put on your initials?

Mr. Hill. All six shells remained in my possession until I initialed them.

Mr. Belin. Was this an empty shell or live bullet?

Mr. Hill. That is a live round.

Mr. Belin. For what caliber?

Mr. Hill. A .38 caliber.

Mr. Belin. I am going to hand you another bullet which has been marked Q-177.

Mr. Hill. That appears to be Q-177.

It's also on the what appears to be the copper tip has the initial JH running together, the initials CK on it also.

It is a Western .38 special bullet. It has not been fired. It is a copper-colored slug. On the case of this shell is also the name H-i-l-l, which was placed there on November 22.

Mr. Belin. Let the record show that I believe that these are Exhibit 145, but I am not sure. I mean Commission Exhibit 145, and therefore, I identified them by the "Q" number which is on the bullet itself.

56 Was this also something that you took out?

Mr. Hill. This would have been another of the shells, and the gun.

Mr. Belin. I hand you four more bullets which have been marked as, I believe they are Commission Exhibit 518, but again I will withhold that identification.

I see the markings on this—let me see if I can see some "Q" numbers.

I see one Q-79. Do you see that, sergeant?

Mr. Hill. Now that I know where to look, I can find it. It is going to be Q-79.

It has the initials CK. That is distinguishable on it. It has two X's near the identification number that are legible.

And it has other markings that is R something or "R-" that is apparently on some of the others.

Mr. Belin. Do you see your name on that?

Mr. Hill. My name is also on this, on the metal jacket portion of the shell.

Mr. Belin. What kind of bullet is that?

Mr. Hill. This is another Western .38 special with a copper-colored coating on the lead inside the bullet.

Mr. Belin. Handing you Q-78.

Mr. Hill. This is a .38 caliber Western shell with the identification mark Q-78, with the other markings of JH and CK on it, and also on the shell casing near the rear of the bullet is the name H-i-l-l, with which I marked it.

Mr. Belin. Handing you Q-80.

Mr. Hill. Okay. This is an R.-P. .38 shell with the identification number Q-80.

The initials CK and JH near the "Q" number on the jacket of this one. Also is the name H-i-l-l scratched into the metal, which I placed on it. And this one also is a plain lead shell.

Mr. Belin. Handing you Q-81, do you see Q-81, on there?

Mr. Hill. This is an R and P shell with the identification number Q-81, with the initials CK and JH scratched near the "Q" number.

On the side of this shell also is the word H-i-l-l, which was placed on this shell by me.

This is a .38 lead slug.

Mr. Belin. What is the fact as to whether or not all of these slugs were removed from this gun which has been marked as Exhibit 143?

What is the fact as to whether or not all of those six were removed?

Mr. Hill. All six of the slugs that were identified immediately previous to this point were removed from the gun, identified as Commission Exhibit 143, by me.

Mr. Belin. What is the fact as to whether or not from the time this gun was handed to you until the time you removed these six bullets, this gun was in your possession?

Mr. Hill. The gun remained in my possession until it, from the time it was given to me until the gun was marked and all the shells were marked. They remained in my personal possession. After they were marked, they were released by me to Detective T. L. Baker of the homicide bureau. He came to the personnel office and requested that they be given to him, and I marked them and turned them over to him at this point.

Mr. Belin. All right, now, I want to return to the car, Sergeant Hill.

You stated that this gun was handed to you by——

Mr. Hill. Detective Bob Carroll.

Mr. Belin. Detective Bob Carroll when he got in?

Mr. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Belin. All right.

After he handed you—handed the gun to you, will you tell us what happened inside the car, or whether anyone made any remarks? And if you can, what happened in the car?

Mr. Hill. We mostly got the car in motion, traveled to the first corner where we could make a right turn, made a right turn, traveled one block, made another right turn, continued down this street, and at this point we would have been going east until we reached Zangs Boulevard, and turned left onto Zangs.

57 Within, I would say seconds—this is just a guess—after we got in the car, I picked up the radio and used the call number 550, car 2, which No. 550 is the number assigned to the personnel office, and because I knew the captain was out in the field and he would be using 550, if he got on the radio.

I used call 550, car 2, and made the statement, "We have suspect and weapon and are en route to the station."

Mr. Belin. Now I want to hand you what has been marked Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, which is the transcript of the police log, and I notice that at 1:52 p.m., there was a 550-2-531, with the notation, "Suspect on shooting of police officer is apprehended en route to the station." Was that——

Mr. Hill. Well, that would have generally been—that would have been——

Mr. Belin. Would have been you?

Mr. Hill. That would have been me.

Mr. Belin. It is marked "Westbrook-Batchelor." Is that because of the No. 2 on it?

Mr. Hill. Yes.

Possibly Batchelor's call is 2, and Westbrook's is 550, so apparently they showed Westbrook was talking to Chief Batchelor, which at this point——

Mr. Belin. Someone else put this handwriting in. That is, "Westbrook-Batchelor," but is that the time that you called in?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; I don't remember the exact words, but I did get on the radio as soon as we got to the car and it got moving, notifying that we were en route to the station with the suspect. That would have been possibly right.

Mr. Belin. It goes on to say, "From the Texas Theatre."

And, "caught him on the lower floor of the Texas Theatre after a fight."

Did you say that?

Mr. Hill. This would have been the dispatcher to me asking the question did we have him in the Texas Theatre. Was that where we arrested him?

Mr. Belin. That is 531-550-2?

Mr. Hill. In other words, it is dispatcher to 550 car 2.

Mr. Belin. All right.

Mr. Hill. And he was finding out for sure if we had arrested him at the theatre.

Mr. Belin. Then it goes to 550.

Mr. Hill. Car 2 would have been my answer to the dispatcher.

Mr. Belin. It says, "Caught him on the lower floor of the Texas Theatre after a fight." And then 531-2-3.

Mr. Hill. That would have been the dispatcher talking to——

Mr. Belin. Someone?

Mr. Hill. Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson.

Mr. Belin. Two and three?

Mr. Hill. Then 531 again would have been the dispatcher advising 305, which is a homicide unit that the apprehension had been made.

And then the 550 car 2, to 531 would have been me telling him that we had 223, who was Walker—that is Walker's call number, and 492, which was Carroll, and Lyons' call number in the car with me.

And we later had to make arrangements for somebody to go back and pick up 223 car and take it back.

Mr. Belin. That last call then was made at 1:53 p.m., in which you advised who was in the car?

Mr. Hill. With us en route to the station.

Mr. Belin. And the first one that you made after you got to the car was at 1:52 p.m.?

Mr Hill. Yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. Now, also turning to Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A, I notice that there is another call on car No. 550-2. Was that you at that time, or not, at 1:40 p.m.?

Would that have been someone else?

Mr. Hill. That probably is R. D. Stringer.

Mr. Belin. That is not you, then, even though it has a number 550-2?

Mr. Hill. Yes; because Stringer quite probably would have been using the same call number, because it is more his than it was mine, really, but I didn't58 have an assigned call number, so I was using a number I didn't think anybody would be using, which is call 550-2, instead of the Westbrook to Batchelor as it indicates here.

Mr. Belin. Now after, from the time you started in motion until the time you called in, do you remember anyone saying anything at all in the car?

Mr. Hill. The suspect was asked what his name was.

Mr. Belin. What did he say?

Mr. Hill. He never did answer. He just sat there.

Mr. Belin. Was he asked where he lived?

Mr. Hill. That was the second question that was asked the suspect, and he didn't answer it, either.

About the time I got through with the radio transmission, I asked Paul Bentley, "Why don't you see if he has any identification."

Paul was sitting sort of sideways in the seat, and with his right hand he reached down and felt of the suspect's left hip pocket and said, "Yes, he has a billfold," and took it out.

I never did have the billfold in my possession, but the name Lee Oswald was called out by Bentley from the back seat, and said this identification, I believe, was on the library card.

And he also made the statement that there was some more identification in this other name which I don't remember, but it was the same name that later came in the paper that he bought the gun under.

Mr. Belin. Would the name Hidell mean anything? Alek Hidell?

Mr. Hill. That would be similar. I couldn't say specifically that is what it was, because this was a conversation and I never did see it written down, but that sounds like the name that I heard.

Mr. Belin. Was this the first time you learned of the name?

Mr. Hill. Yes; it was.

Mr. Belin. All right; when did you learn of his address?

Mr. Hill. There were two different addresses on the identification.

One of them was in Oak Cliff. The other one was in Irving. But as near as I can recall of the conversation in the car, this was strictly conversation, because I didn't read any of the stuff. It didn't have an address on Beckley, that I recall hearing.

Mr. Belin. Let me ask you this. Now from the time you got in the car to the time you got to the station, I believe you said that at least the second question asked was where do you live, and the man didn't answer?

Mr. Hill. The man didn't answer.

Mr. Belin. Was he ever asked again where he lived, up to the time you got to the station?

Mr. Hill. No; I don't believe so, because when Bentley got the identification out, we had two different addresses. We had two different names, and the comment was made, "I guess we are going to have to wait until we get to the station to find out who he actually is."

After about the time Bentley reached in his pocket and got his billfold, the suspect made the statement, "I don't know why you are treating me like this. The only thing I have done is carry a pistol in a movie."

Then there was a remark made something to the effect, "Yes, sir; you have done a lot more. You have killed a policeman."

And then the suspect made a remark similar to "Well, you fry for that," or something to that effect.

Mr. Belin. Something to what effect?

Mr. Hill. Well, now, he either made the statement, "You only fry for that," or "You can fry for that," or a similar statement. Now the exact words of it, I don't recall.

Mr. Belin. All right; then what was said?

Mr. Hill. Some more questions were asked as to where he had been prior to going to the movie, which he did not answer. Some more questions were asked as to what was his true name, and in neither case did he ever answer them. He did make a comment, if I recall, about the handcuffs, about, "I don't see why you handcuffed me." And here again he repeated the statement, "The only crime I have committed was carrying a pistol in a movie."

59 We got the suspect to the city hall as rapidly as possible without using the siren and red light, but we took advantage of every open spot we had to make a little speed, and we explained to him this—I did, before we got into the basement, that there would probably be some reporters and photographers and cameramen waiting in the basement when we got to the station, and that if he so desired, we would hold him in a way that he could hide his face if he wanted to, and also told him he did not have to speak to the press if he didn't want to.

He didn't comment on this at this point, but as we pulled into the basement from the Main Street side, we were wanting to get out and get organized enough that we would set up our wedge again to get him in the station through the basement, and so we pulled over to what would have been the southeast side of the basement, got out of the car, and formed a wedge in the same position that we left the theatre, and told the suspect again he could hide his face if he wanted to.

And he said, "Why should I hide my face. I haven't done anything to be ashamed of."

And with that we started walking him up the aisle of the basement and walked him through the door into the basement of the city hall proper, put him on the elevator, stayed on the elevator with him, put him back behind the wall, and sort of formed a wall around him.

Some of the press pushed into the elevator with us.

Got him out on the third floor, walked him into the homicide and robbery office, placed him in the first interrogation room inside the homicide and robbery office, and left Officer Walker there with him.

At this point I stood in the door of the, or at the door of the room he was in.

Reporters wanted to see the pistol. I held it up to them but never relinquished control of it. I asked Baker at this time, who was Detective T. L. Baker, if he wanted the pistol, and he said, "No; hold on to it until later."

I explained to him that this was the suspect on Tippit and did he want us to make up the arrest sheet, or would they make them up.

We were trying to get together to decide who was going to make the offense report and get all the little technicalities out of the way when a detective named Richard Stovall and another one, G. F. Rose, came up, and the four of us were standing when Captain Fritz walked in.

He walked up to Rose and Stovall and made the statement to them, "Go get a search warrant and go out to some address on Fifth Street," and I don't recall the actual street number, in Irving, and "pick up a man named Lee Oswald."

And I asked the captain why he wanted him, and he said, "Well, he was employed down at the Book Depository and he had not been present for a roll call of the employees."

And we said, "Captain, we will save you a trip," or words to that effect, "Because there he sits."

And with that, we relinquished our prisoner to the homicide and robbery bureau, to Captain Fritz.

Walker, Bentley, Lyons, Carroll, and I knew that the prisoner had received a laceration and bruises while effecting his arrest, and that an officer had been scratched while effecting the arrest, and that Bentley had sprained an ankle, and Lyons had sprained an ankle while effecting the arrest—they were fixing to have to make a whole bushel basket of reports—we adjourned to the personnel office, which was further down the hall from homicide and I sat down and started to try to organize the first report on the arrest.

I originally had the heading on it, "Injuries sustained by suspect while effecting his arrest in connection with the murder of Officer J. D. Tippit," and a few minutes later Captain Westbrook came in the office and said that our suspect had admitted being a Communist. This is strictly hearsay. I did not hear it myself.

He himself also said a few minutes later he had previously been in the Marine Corps, had a dishonorable discharge, had been to Russia, and had had some trouble with the police in New Orleans for passing out pro-Castro literature.

This still is all hearsay because I didn't actually hear it firsthand myself.60 And at about this point Captain Westbrook suggested that I change the heading of my report to include arrest of the suspect in the assassination of the President and in the murder of Officer J. D. Tippit, which I did.

I originally wrote the report for Bob Carroll's signature and for my signature, and left it with the captain to be typed while we moved over in another office to get a cup of coffee and sort of calm down and recap the events.

By then McDonald was there, and we had added some information that he could give us such as the information about "This is it." Which the suspect allegedly said as he came into contact with him.

The exact location of the officers and who was there on the original arrest and everything, and we were waiting around for the secretary to finish the report.

When we got it back ready to sign, Carroll and I were sitting there, and it had Captain Westbrook's name for signature, and added a paragraph about he and the FBI agent being there, and not seeing that it made any difference, I went ahead and signed the report.

Actually, they were there, but I didn't make any corrections.

And as far as the report, didn't allege what they did, but had added a paragraph to our report to include the fact that he was there, and also that the FBI agent was there.

Now as to why this was done, your guess is as good as mine.

Mr. Belin. Were they there at the time?

Mr. Hill. They were there. They got there inside where we were about the time he was being handcuffed.

Mr. Belin. All right, let me go back a minute now.

You left the suspect in the custody of homicide?

Mr. Hill. Right.

Mr. Belin. In what office was he left?

Mr. Hill. He was still in the interrogation room and still in the homicide and robbery bureau office.

Mr. Belin. Who was in there with him when you left?

Mr. Hill. When I left the office, Captain Fritz, who was the commander of the bureau was there, and I had assumed, being that he was the officer in charge, the highest ranking man there, and it was his bureau and his office, theoretically he was in possession of the prisoner.

However, now as to specifically who went in and took him out of the interrogation room and took him to the captain's office, I don't know.

Mr. Belin. Was Captain Fritz in the interrogation office?

Mr. Hill. Captain Fritz was in the hall. There was a little small hallway to the door here, and there is a hallway just big enough to pass through. The suspect was in the interrogation room and Captain Fritz immediately in front of him.

Mr. Belin. Was anyone else in the interrogation room when you left?

Mr. Hill. No; Walker was, and when we turned him over to homicide, Walker came out and Fritz and his people had control of the prisoner.

Mr. Belin. So when you and Walker left, the nearest office to him was Fritz'?

Mr. Hill. As far as I know; yes, sir.

Mr. Belin. At any time up to the time you left, did you ever get any address on the suspect as to where he lived other than the statement of Captain Fritz that he had this address on Fifth Street somewhere in Irving?

Mr. Hill. Paul Bentley called off two addresses. One, as I recall, in Irving, and another one in Oak Cliff, when he was reading from information inside the suspect's billfold. But neither of these addresses was an address on 10th or on Beckley.

As to exactly what they were, I don't recall, as I didn't see the identification.

Mr. Belin. Would one of them have been an address on Neely Street?

Mr. Hill. It very possibly could be. In fact I believe it was.

Mr. Belin. To the best of your knowledge, did anyone in the car in which you were riding down to the police station ever mention any Beckley Street address for the suspect?

Mr. Hill. No.

61 Mr. Belin. To the best of your knowledge, when the suspect was brought into the police station, up to the time you left him with Captain Fritz there, had anyone mentioned a Beckley Street address?

Mr. Hill. No.

Mr. Belin. What else did the suspect say, if anything?

Mr. Hill. Other than the statement he made about brutality in the theatre, and other than the statements he made in the car about "Why are you treating me this way? The only thing I have done is carry a gun," and "Why are you handcuffing me, the only thing I have done is carry a gun," and when the comment was made about something of killing an officer, and he said something to the extent that you can only fry for that, and the man showed absolutely no emotion.

He gave the appearance of being arrogant, and yet he didn't make boastful statements. He was silent almost the entire time he was in the car except for the flareup of the brutality in the theatre, and the two statements or the three statements that he made in the car. He was silent almost the entire time until we got to the basement when he made the statement that he didn't know why he should hide his face, he didn't have anything to be ashamed of.

Mr. Belin. When the comment was made about frying, did any police officer in the car say in substance, "Maybe you will find out," or something like that?

Do you remember anything like that being said?

Mr. Hill. There was probably a sarcastic remark to that made, but as to the exact words of it, "You will find out," or "You will get a chance to find out," but I am sure there was an answer to his question, and I don't recall who said it.

But as near as I can remember, it came from the back seat.

Mr. Belin. Was there any reply by the suspect along the lines of "Well, I understand it only takes a minute," or something like that?

Did you hear him say anything like that?

Mr. Hill. I don't recall that statement. It could have been made, because there were about half a dozen conversations actually going on in the car.

At one point after I opened the pistol, and I did open it in the car, and found that one of the slugs or one of the shells did have an indention to the primer that could have been caused by the hammer, we made a comment that he tried or he did pull the trigger, and this was in line with what Hutson had asked me, in the theatre, had I heard the gun click.

Mr. Belin. Anything else that happened in the car?

Mr. Hill. Not that I can recall of specific detail.

There was quite a bit of excitement.

Everybody had been in the little scuffle and were huffing and puffing, and especially me, as fat as I am, but there weren't any, I don't recall any more direct statements. There was nothing ever said in the car that I can recall that would have put it at this time. We didn't have enough to be sure that maybe the two were tied together.

Mr. Belin. Anything else about the demeanor of the witness at all?

Mr. Hill. Other than as I said, he gave the appearance of arrogance, but yet he did not talk boastfully. In fact, he talked very little. This was one of the things that stuck out most about him in my mind, was how quiet he did keep.

His commenting or relating the statement that the only crime he had committed was carrying a gun in the theatre, and the refusal to answer questions as to what his name was and where he lived, this is not unusual immediately after an arrest, because when a man is arrested, he is keyed up too, and probably thinks that the best thing that they can do is keep their mouth shut, and he had previously in the theatre said he wanted his attorney.

Mr. Belin. He had said this in the theatre?

Mr. Hill. Yes; when we arrested him, he wanted his lawyer. He knew his rights.

Mr. Belin. Did he ever say he requested an attorney on the way down to the police station?

Mr. Hill. I do not recall.

I was going to say that by making the statement earlier, it is possible, it is a62 possibility that he decided the best thing to do was keep his mouth shut; that is a supposition on my part, and I couldn't prove it as to the reason he didn't say any more on the way to the police station.

Mr. Belin. Where did the police get ahold of his address on Beckley?

Mr. Hill. I don't know. This apparently came from homicide later, and once we turned him over to homicide, with the exception of seeing him walking down the hall again in front of several TV people later in the day, I had nothing else to do with the man. I never saw him again.

Mr. Belin. Sergeant Hill, from the time he was handcuffed until the time you turned him over to Captain Fritz, except for the moments that he was in the room with Officer Walker in the interrogation room, were you with the suspect at all times?

Mr. Hill. Yes; and I was also with him when I was standing in the doorway of the room when he was there, with Walker. The door was never closed.

Mr. Belin. The door was never closed?

Mr. Hill. No.

Mr. Belin. While you were standing in the doorway with Walker, did the man, suspect, say anything at all, or not?

Mr. Hill. Not that I recall, sir. At this time when I was in the doorway, I was talking to Baker and had my attention more on him and what he was saying, because at that point we were trying to decide if he wanted the gun, if we were going to make the offense, or homicide, or the officers that stayed out at the scene to wait for the crime lab. We were talking trying to get the paperwork straight.

Mr. Belin. How far was the suspect from you at this time?

Mr. Hill. Sitting across the table, about as wide as this, and maybe 2 more feet to the door.

Mr. Belin. About how far would that be?

Mr. Hill. About 6 feet.

Mr. Belin. How close was the other officer to you?

Mr. Hill. The other officer was at the end of the table here. He was probably 4 feet from me and 4 feet from the suspect.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear the other officer say anything to the suspect?

Mr. Hill. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Belin. Did you hear the suspect say anything at all?

Mr. Hill. I didn't hear the suspect say anything at all. Other than the statement he made in the basement, I didn't hear him utter another word.

Mr. Belin. If the suspect had told anyone his address from the time he was apprehended until the time he was turned over to Captain Fritz, would you have been in a position to hear that statement made?

Mr. Hill. With my attention diverted talking to Baker, it is possible that he could have given his address to Walker without me hearing it, but I can't say for sure.

Mr. Belin. Apart from what he may have said to Walker, if there was anything else that he could have said except for during that period, would you have heard it if he said anything about living on North Beckley?

Mr. Hill. I am sure until the time that the suspect was turned over to Fritz, other than maybe a couple of words exchanged between Walker and the suspect while I was standing in the door talking to Baker, I am sure I would have heard it, and I never did hear the address North Beckley mentioned until much later in the day, and this was strictly hearsay, sir.

Mr. Belin. Well, did you hear any Beckley Street address mentioned?

Mr. Hill. I didn't hear anything on Beckley mentioned until probably 7 or 8 o'clock that night.

Mr. Belin. Did you talk to Walker after he left the interrogation room?

Mr. Hill. Talked to Walker after he left the interrogation room. He came into the personnel office with us, and we sat down and made sure that—we just talked over our story and made sure that we had all the details as to who was where in the arrest, what door the man came in into the theatre, where they were when the original contact was made, how Bentley hurt his foot, how Lyons hurt his foot, and all this, and decided, well, rather than have to get everybody back together and round them up and all six or seven people sign the one63 report, it was decided that Carroll and I would be the only two that signed it, and that Bentley would go on to the hospital and get his foot fixed, and Lyons would go to the hospital and get his foot fixed, and after McDonald finally got down there to the station and we sent him over to the city hall to get the scratch on his face treated, and then the rest of the time, with the exception of going across the hall for a cup of coffee, probably I didn't get out of the office to almost 5 o'clock.

Mr. Belin. Did Walker ever mention to you any conversation he had with Oswald in the interrogation room?

Mr. Hill. No, sir.

Mr. Belin. Did you and he discuss all the conversations that were had with the prisoner?

Mr. Hill. With the exception of getting some information from McDonald as to what Oswald actually said at the time of his contact with him in the theatre, the statement to the effect, "This is it," I figured that I had been in on the conversation when he was discussing the brutality and the statements he made in the car, and the statement he made in the basement when we were telling him he could duck his head if he wanted to, enough that I had all the information that I needed for the report, so I never did discuss any of the conversation that could possibly have taken place between Walker and the suspect in the interrogation room.

Mr. Belin. Over what period of time span would that have been that he was in the interrogation room and you were standing in the doorway there?

Mr. Hill. Probably 3 or 4 minutes.

Mr. Belin. Now, when you were going down to the station in the car, I believe the question was asked of the suspect to give his name and his address and he refused, is that correct?

Mr. Hill. He didn't answer either question. He didn't say, "I am not going to tell you anything." He just didn't answer, that is all.

Mr. Belin. But at least Officer Walker never told you that he finally answered that question, did he?

Mr. Hill. No.

Mr. Belin. Well, you had one report that you entitled "The arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald," which pertained to the Texas Theatre. Did you have any other report that you made at all, or not?

Mr. Hill. I had to make one later about a telephone call that I made from San Antonio to Dallas when we got the flash down there on Sunday morning that Oswald had been shot. I was attending a meeting down there.

Mr. Belin. Well, apart from that, anything?

Mr. Hill. Also, I made a statement to the FBI concerning the fact that I had known Jack Ruby prior to this thing. But as far an another report, other than the original report that afternoon on the arrest of the suspect, I don't recall writing any other report after that one report that was signed by Carroll and I and Captain Westbrook is the only one I wrote on the actual arrest.

Mr. Belin. I see one 2-page report that is signed by you.

Mr. Hill. Can I look at it?

Mr. Belin. You bet you can.

[Handing to witness.]

Mr. Hill. This was later when they wanted a report from each individual officer. Yes, sir; I did write this.

Mr. Belin. You are referring to a report dated what?

Mr. Hill. This would have been dated November 22, sir, and it is signed by Captain Westbrook and Bob Carroll and myself. I do not have it with me, but in case it is not in there, I have a carbon copy of it with all three signatures on it.

Mr. Belin. Did you have anything to do with either the assassination investigation or the Tippit investigation on Saturday, November 23?

Mr. Hill. No, sir; I was off that day.

And then on Sunday the 24th, I had flown out of Dallas that morning on a Braniff flight to San Antonio with a sergeant from Dallas and captain from Garland and captain from Denison to attend a state board meeting of the Texas Municipal Police Association in San Antonio at the International Building, and64 we took a coffee break somewhere around 11:30 or 12, I don't know the exact time.

Mr. Belin. When was the last time you saw Jack Ruby prior to the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. Hill. It was probably 6 to 8 weeks, and that was a contact that I was walking by a garage one night about the time he came down to get his car, and we talked for a minute and that is all.

Mr. Belin. Do you remember what you said or what he said at all, or not?

Mr. Hill. It just was a greeting. We hadn't seen each other in quite a while. In the interim, I had been on—normally when I was on a rotating schedule of working evenings and deep nights, the Carousel Club was located in the district that I worked quite often, and I would stop in there once in a while, and I had been on a special assignment for about 2 months working straight days, in town and out of town, and I hadn't been by or hadn't seen him, and this particular night we ran into each other, and he wanted to know what I was doing, and I told him I was working in personnel.

And he said, I haven't been much around much lately, and I said, "I am staying home."

Mr. Belin. When was the last time you saw him prior to that meeting?

Mr. Hill. Probably the last time, I was in his place on duty, maybe 3 or 4 weeks before this.

Mr. Belin. I wonder if you would describe the situation in the police department on the third floor with regard to reporters or what have you during the period of time that you brought Oswald in and during the rest of the time you might have been there on the afternoon of November 22?

What did you find when you got there?

Mr. Hill. There wasn't anybody except the ones that were down in the basement waiting for us to bring him in, and they were standing in the doorway, that if you turned to the right, you go in the jail office.

If you go straight, you go into the basement of the building.

Some of them rode up on the elevator with us. When we started off the elevator, they got ahead of us and shot us walking down the hall and took pictures of us going to homicide.

We carried him into the interrogation room and they followed us into the homicide office.

At this time probably there were six or seven people, Jim Underwood from KRLD was one of them, and I don't recall any more specifically by name.

But as time went by in the afternoon, more and more people came in until I would say about 6:45 or 7 o'clock that night, the night of the 22d, when I left, there were some 70- or 80-odd reporters and floodlights and two or three live cameras and several more cameras on tripods, and out-of-town reporters, and local reporters, and everything else, that officers were on duty and in uniform to keep the halls open as much as possible.

And if you wanted to go from the elevator entrance on back toward homicide or to any of the other detective offices, you had to drag your way through TV cables and bodies of people, seesawing your course to get through there.

Mr. Belin. Now you have stated when we first started this deposition that you had some background in either newspaper or radio or television?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir.

I worked at the Herald both as a police reporter, as a newswriter, and a radio-TV editor, and left there and went with WBAP as a member of their Dallas Bureau, covering the, working out of an office in the police station here in Dallas, and covering police news and all other types of news also.

Mr. Belin. Was there any request ever made to the press people to clear the hall or clear the floor at all?

Mr. Hill. Not to my personal knowledge; no, sir. It could have been made when I wasn't there, or it could have been made before I got there, or after I left or while I was in an office or something, but I don't know that a direct order was ever given to get everybody out.

Mr. Belin. Could you tell us what general discussion there was among the officers, the line officers, without quoting any names that might embarrass anyone, about all of these people and paraphernalia there?

65 Mr. Hill. As to the situation, we commented that it was a bad thing that we didn't have a space big enough to put everybody and make press releases to them like they did in some of the eastern cities.

I think somebody brought up the fact that in New York you wouldn't do what was done here because everybody had to go to one place and when they got ready to tell you something, they would come in and make a formal announcement, and if they wanted to throw it open for questions they did, and if they didn't they would walk out.

There was commenting on the smallness of the space that we had to work in and the inconvenience there, and the building, had it been Brooklyn, it wouldn't have created as much congestion and all.

But there was a feeling of congeniality between the police and the press, and I observed some of the officers that did have to go ask somebody to move or get out of the way, or not block a door, or so, or not block this, and the press was very nice about cooperating and doing at that time what they were asked to do.

What happened Saturday and Sunday, I don't know. But it was rather crowded, I will make that statement.

Mr. Belin. Sergeant Hill, I have handed you these six bullets that you previously identified with your signature on it here, and asked you to examine and try to find which one, if any, had a scratch that you talked about, and you picked out what might properly be the one.

What is the fact as to whether or not this depression was a deep one or was one that you found difficult to see?

Mr. Hill. It was one that I found difficult to see at the time.

However, the bullets had not been handled as much at that time, and they were less shiny, and evidence would have been a little better on a dull shell where a new marking had been made on it rather than one that had been handled a few times.

Mr. Belin. The two that you picked out are marked, I believe, "Q-80" and the other one is "Q-177," is that it?

Mr. Hill. That's right.

Mr. Belin. I think you said as between the two of them, you saw——

Mr. Hill. Q-80 would be the one.

Mr. Belin. Now, Sergeant Hill, we met one time earlier here, I think, a couple of days ago, is that correct?

Mr. Hill. I believe it was Friday afternoon, sir.

Mr. Belin. Friday afternoon?

Mr. Hill. Yes.

Mr. Belin. Originally we had your deposition set for Friday afternoon, is that correct?

Mr. Hill. That's right.

Mr. Belin. You came and I had an airplane flight, an 8 o'clock flight, that was canceled?

Mr. Hill. That left.

Mr. Belin. I left at 5:30—and now it is past 7 o'clock—and I told you I didn't think we had a chance to get your deposition.

At that time I believe I asked you just to state what general areas of work you had worked in so we could try and see whether or not we had time to take your deposition in half an hour, and I believe you described your work at the Texas School Book Depository in general terms, and in general terms your being at the Texas Theatre, but did we go into any details at that time?

Mr. Hill. The only specifics we discussed were this.

You were asking Officer Hicks if either one recalled seeing a sack, supposedly one that had been made by the suspect, in which he could have possibly carried the weapon into the Depository, and I at that time told you about the small sack that appeared to be a lunchsack, and that that was the only sack that I saw, and that I left the Book Depository prior to the finding of the gun.

Or the section, if it was found up there on the sixth floor, if it was there, I didn't see it.

Then you asked me some statement, if I had heard it in the car, but I don't recall what statement it was.

66 But I told you at that time there was remarks made, but I didn't recall hearing that. I don't remember what it was.

Perhaps your memory on that is better than mine.

Mr. Belin. Was there anything else in specific that we discussed at that time?

Mr. Hill. Not that I recall.

Mr. Belin. Otherwise, that is our only conversation that we had?

Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; it was just very general and very limited due to the stress of time.

Mr. Belin. By the way, did you search the suspect that you brought in from the Texas Theatre?

Mr. Hill. As to any other possible weapon?

Mr. Belin. Yes; or ammunition?

Mr. Hill. I did not search him, and being that he was handcuffed, and being that they were moving him out hurriedly, I don't recall anyone else searching him after he was placed under arrest.

Mr. Belin. Is there anything else you can think of, whether I have asked it or not, that is in any way relevant to this area of inquiry pertaining to the investigation of the assassination, or the investigation of the Tippit murder?

Anything else you can think of that you would like to comment on at this time?

Mr. Hill. Not that I can recall, sir.

Mr. Belin. Sergeant Hill, we want to thank you very much for your splendid cooperation, and for the cooperation of the entire police department here, and you particularly.

You had to make two trips, because of the fact that the one airplane of mine was canceled.

Mr. Hill. They were both on duty, so I don't mind.

Mr. Belin. You have an opportunity, if you like, to read the typewritten transcript of this deposition and sign it, or else you can waive the signing and have it go directly to Washington without your reading.

Do you have any preference?

Mr. Hill. Sir, if it would be all right, I would like to run by and sign it?

If you will just let me know when, I will be here.

Mr. Belin. They will contact you and again we want to thank you very much.

Mr. Hill. It is my pleasure. Anytime I can help, let me know.

TESTIMONY OF J. M. POE

The testimony of J. M. Poe was taken at 10:30 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Ball. Would you stand and be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Poe. Yes.

Mr. Ball. State your name.

Mr. Poe. J. M. Poe [spelling]. P-o-e.

Mr. Ball. And your address?

Mr. Poe. 1716 Cascade Street.

Mr. Ball. And your occupation?

Mr. Poe. Police officer, city of Dallas.

Mr. Ball. All right, what is your rank in the department?

Mr. Poe. Patrolman.

Mr. Ball. How long have you been in the department?

67 Mr. Poe. Nine years and one month.

Mr. Ball. And where were you born?

Mr. Poe. Winnsboro, Tex.

Mr. Ball. Where did you go to school?

Mr. Poe. Winnsboro, Stephensville, and Edgewood.

Mr. Ball. How far through school did you go?

Mr. Poe. Graduated from high school.

Mr. Ball. Then what did you do?

Mr. Poe. Then went into the Navy.

Mr. Ball. How long did you stay there?

Mr. Poe. Three years.

Mr. Ball. Then what did you do?

Mr. Poe. I was what we called a "snipe," diesel mechanic.

Mr. Ball. How long did you do that work?

Mr. Poe. About 2 years.

Mr. Ball. Then what did you do?

Mr. Poe. I was in construction work. I was the carpenter when I got out of the Service.

Mr. Ball. You worked as a "snipe," in the Service, is that right?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Then you got out of the Service and worked as a construction worker?

Mr. Poe. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And then what did you do?

Mr. Poe. I joined the police force.

Mr. Ball. What kind of work do you do on the police force?

Mr. Poe. Patrol work.

Mr. Ball. Patrolman?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. In a car?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. In a radio car?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Were you on duty on the 22d of November 1963?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. Ball. What time of day?

Mr. Poe. From 7 in the morning until 3 in the afternoon.

Mr. Ball. Were you alone?

Mr. Poe. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Who was with you?

Mr. Poe. L. E. Jez.

Mr. Ball. [Spelling.] J-a-s-s.

Mr. Poe. No; it is J-e-z.

Mr. Ball. What district do you patrol?

Mr. Poe. I had two districts to patrol. District 105 and district 106.

Mr. Ball. Where are they located?

Mr. Poe. In the western end of the downtown section.

Mr. Ball. You were a downtown patrolman?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear of the assassination of the President over the radio? The fact that the President had been shot?

Mr. Poe. We heard the call come out on the radio. There was a signal 19, which would be a shooting of the President, at Elm and Houston Streets.

Mr. Ball. What did you do?

Were you told to go some place?

Mr. Poe. We reported the scene; yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. To where?

Mr. Poe. To Elm and Houston.

Mr. Ball. When—what did you do there?

Mr. Poe. We helped cover off the building and control the crowd.

Mr. Ball. Then you went where?

Mr. Poe. From there to Oak Cliff, to the scene of the Tippit shooting.

68 Mr. Ball. How did you happen to go out there?

Mr. Poe. I was standing close to the squad car using the squad car as part of the block to keep the crowd back and had run out of rope, and heard a citizen, I presume, get on the radio, and—because he didn't know radio procedure, called and said a police officer was shot out there. At first give the wrong address, and come back and changed it to another address, and I believe he left us in the 400 block of East Ninth, the last time, and we went out there.

Mr. Ball. You went there?

Mr. Poe. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And what did you find when you got there?

Mr. Poe. We found——

Mr. Ball. What did you see?

Mr. Poe. Found the squad car parked toward the curb, and a pool of blood at the left-front wheel of the car. The ambulance had already picked him up and the officer had left the scene when we arrived. We had—I don't know how many people there were. Looked like 150 to 200 people around there, and Mrs. Markham, I talked to her first and we got a description of the man that shot Tippit.

Mr. Ball. Do you know what the description was?

Mr. Poe. Sir?

Mr. Ball. Do you know what the description was?

Mr. Poe. White male, about 25, about 5 feet 8, brown hair, medium, and I believe she said had on a white jacket at the time.

Mr. Ball. What did you do then?

Mr. Poe. We gave the description to several of the officers at the scene. You couldn't get on the radio at the time, there was so much traffic on the radio, and the last—the direction he was seen leaving, and then I talked to several more witnesses around there.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever put that description on the radio?

Mr. Poe. I believe we did. But I couldn't swear to it.

Mr. Ball. And what happened after that?

Mr. Poe. I talked to a Spanish man, but I don't remember his name. Dominique, I believe.

Mr. Ball. Domingo Benavides?

Mr. Poe. I believe that is correct; yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did he tell you?

Mr. Poe. He told me, give me the same, or similar description of the man, and told me he was running out across this lawn. He was unloading his pistol as he ran, and he picked the shells up.

Mr. Ball. Domingo told you who was running across the lawn?

Mr. Poe. A man, white man.

Mr. Ball. What was he doing?

Mr. Poe. He was unloading his pistol as he run.

Mr. Ball. And what did he say?

Mr. Poe. He said he picked the two hulls up.

Mr. Ball. Did he hand you the hulls?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you put any markings on the hulls?

Mr. Poe. I couldn't swear to it; no, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did you do with the hulls?

Mr. Poe. I turned the hulls into the crime lab, which was at the scene.

Mr. Ball. Do you know the name of the man with the crime lab or from the crime lab?

Mr. Poe. I couldn't swear to it. I believe Pete Barnes, but I wouldn't swear to it.

Mr. Ball. Did you talk to any people there?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Who?

Mr. Poe. Talked to Mrs. Markham.

Mr. Ball. Did you talk to the two Davis girls?

Mr. Poe. I talked to one of them, but I can't recall talking to two Davis girls.

69 Mr. Ball. Do you remember what a Detective Dhority there at the scene did?

Mr. Poe. I remember Detective Leavelle at the scene.

Mr. Ball. Leavelle?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did the Davis girls give you anything? Either one of the Davis girls hand you anything?

Mr. Poe. She give me the same general description of the suspect as Mrs. Markham.

Mr. Ball. What was that?

Mr. Poe. White male, and in his early 20's, around 5'7" or 8", about 145 pounds, and I believe she said had on a white jacket.

Mr. Ball. There is a—off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Ball. We have here a broadcast by Walker. Do you know Walker?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Was Walker there at the scene?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir; he came by the scene after I got there.

Mr. Ball. What is his full name?

Mr. Poe. I don't know. I want to say C. T., but I am not positive on that.

Mr. Ball. At 1:22 p.m., on the transcript of the radio log, I note it says, "Have a description of suspect on Jefferson. Last seen about the 300 block of East Jefferson. White male, 30's; 5'8", black hair, slender built, wearing white shirt, black slacks."

Do you know whether you gave Walker that description?

Mr. Poe. I remember giving Walker a description. My partner got in the car with Walker.

Mr. Ball. Did you give Walker a description similar to that?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Well, the only difference I see between the description you said you gave the other officer and this was that you said he was in his 20's or 25, and this says about 30. Otherwise it is about the same.

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Who told you he had on a white jacket?

Mr. Poe. Mrs. Markham told me first.

Mr. Ball. She did?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir; Mrs. Markham was awfully excited, and she was—looked like about to faint, and I tried to calm her down as much as I could at first and get as much as I could out of her.

Mr. Ball. How many cartridges, or empty cartridges or shells were given to you?

Mr. Poe. There were two in an empty Winston cigarette package.

Mr. Ball. Did you save the Winston cigarette package?

Mr. Poe. I turned it in with the two cartridges.

Mr. Ball. To the crime lab?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, I have here a package which has been marked "Q"—FBI lab. Q-74 to Q-77. Would you look those over and see if there is any identification on there by you to indicate that those were the hulls given to you by Benavides?

Mr. Poe. I want to say these two are mine, but I couldn't swear to it.

Mr. Ball. Did you make a mark?

Mr. Poe. I can't swear to it; no, sir.

Mr. Ball. But there is a mark on two of these?

Mr. Poe. There is a mark. I believe I put on them, but I couldn't swear to it, I couldn't make them out any more.

Mr. Ball. Now, the ones you said you made a mark on are—you think it is these two? Q-77 and Q-75?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir; those two there.

Mr. Ball. Both marked Western Special? They both are marked Western Special. How long did you stay there?

Mr. Poe. At the scene?

Mr. Ball. Uh-huh.

70 Mr. Poe. I stayed there until Leavelle and his partner from the crime lab got there.

Mr. Ball. Then you left?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir; I got out and helped try to find the suspect.

Mr. Ball. Were you at the Texas Theatre?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you see him apprehended?

Mr. Poe. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. You were out?

Mr. Poe. At the back.

Mr. Ball. At the back?

Mr. Poe. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. I think that is all, Mr. Poe.

This will be written up and submitted to you for your signature, and you can sign it if you wish, or waive your signature.

Which do you prefer?

Mr. Poe. Well, sir; I don't have anything to hide. I will tell the truth.

Mr. Ball. Do you want to give your signature?

Mr. Poe. I will sign it.

Mr. Ball. Okay. We'll do that. We can notify you and you can come up here and sign it.

Mr. Poe. All right.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN GIBSON

The testimony of John Gibson was taken at 3:45 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Ball. Will you please rise and hold up your hand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Gibson. I do.

Mr. Ball. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. Gibson. John Gibson.

Mr. Ball. What is your occupation?

Mr. Gibson. I am manager of a retail store.

Mr. Ball. What kind of retail store is that?

Mr. Gibson. It's Elko Camera store.

Mr. Ball. What is the address of the Elko Camera Store?

Mr. Gibson. 239 West Jefferson.

Mr. Ball. Near the Texas Theatre?

Mr. Gibson. I'm four doors from the Texas Theatre.

Mr. Ball. Where were you born, Mr. Gibson?

Mr. Gibson. I was born in Brashear, Tex.

Mr. Ball. Where did you go to school?

Mr. Gibson. Woodrow Wilson High School.

Mr. Ball. Here in Dallas?

Mr. Gibson. In Dallas.

Mr. Ball. Well, what have you done since you got out of school?

Mr. Gibson. Well, after I got out of school I went in service in the Navy and stayed in there 2 years and came back and went to work for Snap-Shots, Inc., and then went to work for Hermetic Seal in Garland, and then went to work for Elko.

Mr. Ball. On November 22, 1963, did you go to a picture show that day?

Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. About what time of day?

Mr. Gibson. It was at 1 o'clock.

71 Mr. Ball. Do you go to the picture show very often—that particular theatre—the Texas Theatre?

Mr. Gibson. Like I said—that's on Friday and that is depending on business.

Mr. Ball. About what time of day do you usually go on Friday?

Mr. Gibson. About 1 o'clock—the same time I always go to lunch.

Mr. Ball. Where did you sit on this Friday, November 22, 1963?

Mr. Gibson. I sat in the first chair from the rear on the far right-hand side.

Mr. Ball. Is that where you always sit?

Mr. Gibson. That's where I always sit—that's my chair.

Mr. Ball. I have a picture here of the theatre, which I will have marked as Exhibit A, and will you look at that picture? Does that look like the interior of the Texas Theatre to you?

Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir; it's got more light on it than I've seen most of the time—that looks like it.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as Gibson Exhibit No. A, for identification.)

Mr. Ball. Is the seat in which you usually sit shown in that picture?

Mr. Gibson. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Where is that seat with reference to the picture?

Mr. Gibson. Further to the left—from the main seating in the very back—it would be just past him.

Mr. Ball. There's a man sitting in the back in the first seat in the center aisle?

Mr. Gibson. Right, and I would be—to his right.

Mr. Ball. In the same row?

Mr. Gibson. In the same row.

Mr. Ball. To his right facing the screen?

Mr. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And on the other aisle, is that correct?

Mr. Gibson. Right.

Mr. Ball. Did you see the lights come on in that theatre?

Mr. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Had you paid any attention to other people who had come in the theatre before the lights came on?

Mr. Gibson. No.

Mr. Ball. Tell me what happened after the lights came on?

Mr. Gibson. Well, when the lights came on, of course, as I said before, I know most of the people that work there in the show and I got up and started to the front to ask where the head usher or the girl was that works these lights—if something was wrong—I thought maybe they had a fire.

Mr. Ball. You say you started to the front, you mean you started into the lobby?

Mr. Gibson. I started to the lobby, and just before I got to the door there were two or three—anyway the first police officer that got to me was carrying a shotgun, I remember that, and he says, "Is there anybody in the balcony?"

I said, "I don't know." He went on up into the balcony and I stood around out in the lobby for—I don't know—a minute or something, I guess, and they kept coming in and I stepped back inside the theatre just standing just behind where I had been sitting and I would say there were at least six or possibly more policemen downstairs. The rest of them were going upstairs.

Mr. Ball. What did you see happen?

Mr. Gibson. Well, I was standing there watching all this going on and then the policeman started down the aisle—I would say there was another—I don't know, maybe six or eight—started down the aisles.

Mr. Ball. When you say "down the aisles," you mean all of the aisles?

Mr. Gibson. Toward the screen—I don't know if they were going down all of them or not. I don't believe there was any—there was one policeman standing, it seems to me like, right on the other side of me, in the far aisle—just behind me—I don't think there was anybody going down the far aisle next to the wall on my side.

Mr. Ball. What aisles did you see policemen going down?

Mr. Gibson. I saw them going down what I would call the two big center72 aisles, and then the next thing was—Oswald was standing in the aisle with a gun in his hand.

Mr. Ball. That's the next thing you saw?

Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Was there anybody with him—near him?

Mr. Gibson. I couldn't swear to that—I don't know—you mean other policemen?

Mr. Ball. That's what I mean—was he in the aisles?

Mr. Gibson. Well, he was in the aisle when I saw him.

Mr. Ball. What was he doing?

Mr. Gibson. Well, he had this pistol in his hand.

Mr. Ball. Was anybody near him?

Mr. Gibson. Just the officers.

Mr. Ball. What was the officer doing—did you say officers or police officer?

Mr. Gibson. Officers.

Mr. Ball. Plural, officers?

Mr. Gibson. Yes; there were more than one.

Mr. Ball. What were they doing?

Mr. Gibson. Well, they were going toward him.

Mr. Ball. Did they have ahold of him at the time?

Mr. Gibson. No; I don't believe so.

Mr. Ball. Did anyone have ahold of him at that time?

Mr. Gibson. I don't think so.

Mr. Ball. Did you see any officer grab hold of Oswald?

Mr. Gibson. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Which one—can you describe where he was and what he did—just tell us in your own words what you saw him do?

Mr. Gibson. Well, just like—I guess you have heard this a lot of times—the gun misfired—it clicked and about the same time there was one police officer that positively had him.

Mr. Ball. What do you mean—"had him"?

Mr. Gibson. Well, I mean he grabbed ahold of him.

Mr. Ball. Did he grab ahold of him before you heard the click or afterwards?

Mr. Gibson. Gee, that's a question that's kind of hard to answer because I would say possibly seconds before or a second—maybe at the precise time the gun clicked. It happened pretty fast and like I say, I just went in to eat a hot-dog for lunch and I wasn't expecting any of this.

Mr. Ball. Did you see any officer strike Oswald?

Mr. Gibson. No, sir; not directly; I saw them take him to the floor.

Mr. Ball. Did you see Oswald strike any officer?

Mr. Gibson. [Shaking head for negative answer.]

Mr. Ball. You did not?

Mr. Gibson. Not that I saw.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear anybody say anything?

Mr. Gibson. Well, I heard the officers, but I don't remember what they said—I couldn't tell you if my life depended on it.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear Oswald say anything?

Mr. Gibson. No.

Mr. Ball. You mentioned the fact that they took him to the floor, you mean they actually went down in the floor of the theatre or close to it?

Mr. Gibson. Well, from where I was standing and looking across—they took him to the floor.

Mr. Ball. Were there any seats in the way when they fell?

Mr. Gibson. No; I was standing up—yes; there was seats in the way, but I was looking at an angle.

Mr. Ball. Did Oswald fall on the seats or on the floor?

Mr. Gibson. They fell on the floor as best I could tell.

Mr. Ball. Then what did you see happen?

Mr. Gibson. I didn't see anything happen—I walked back to the front.

Mr. Ball. Did you see Oswald leave the theatre?

Mr. Gibson. Yes; I saw the officers bring him out.

73 Mr. Ball. Describe what you saw at that time—I want to know how they had ahold of him?

Mr. Gibson. Well, right after they took him to the floor, as I said, he had a gun in his hand and I turned around and walked back into the lobby, the front part of the theatre, and just right after I walked out into the lobby, one of the policemen yelled, "Lock the doors," and so I walked up and started locking the doors and the head usher, Butch, came running out and he started at one end and I started at the other end. There was six or eight doors in the front, and we locked them up and then they brought Oswald through the door—there was two police officers that had ahold of him, and his arms were bent around behind him—like so [indicating].

Mr. Ball. And did the officer have his arm around his neck?

Mr. Gibson. I don't know—I don't think so—he did have a black eye and his shirt was about halfway torn off of him.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear Oswald say anything?

Mr. Gibson. Yes.

Mr. Ball. What did he say?

Mr. Gibson. He said, "I protest police brutality."

Mr. Ball. At any time did you see an officer, while the officers were struggling, with Oswald, did you see an officer strike Oswald with the butt of a shotgun?

Mr. Gibson. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. Did you see a shotgun in the hands of any of the officers who were struggling with Oswald?

Mr. Gibson. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. Did you see any officer in possession of a shotgun in the theatre?

Mr. Gibson. Oh—yes, yes; I saw quite a few in possession of a shotgun.

Mr. Ball. Were there any officers with shotguns near Oswald when he was struggling with these other officers?

Mr. Gibson. Gee, I don't know—that, I couldn't say—because like I say, when they took him down to the floor, all I could—or I should say down—I turned around and went back to the front.

Mr. Ball. Did you see the police talk to the other patrons of the theatre?

Mr. Gibson. Well, as I said, the only thing that they said to me—the first policeman that I saw in the theatre was right after the lights came on and he asked me if there was anyone upstairs, but I can't definitely say I saw them talking to anybody.

Mr. Ball. Well, did any officers talk to you afterwards and get your name and address?

Mr. Gibson. No.

Mr. Ball. Did you see them take the name and address of anybody else?

Mr. Gibson. No, sir; right after they put Lee Oswald in the police car and drove off, I walked outside and went back over to the store.

Mr. Ball. I understood that one group of the police headed for Oswald?

Mr. Gibson. Well, I don't believe they really headed for him—I believe they just started down through the theatre. From what the boy told me—Johnny Pardis told me, he followed him into the theatre and he went upstairs, and I believe this is why all the policemen went upstairs. I don't think they really headed for him. I mean, they just evidently, as I said, all of them went upstairs, with the exception of a small majority, say 6 or 8, maybe 12 downstairs and inside the theatre there.

Mr. Ball. Did they pass you on their way?

Mr. Gibson. You mean up the stairs?

Mr. Ball. No; the smaller party that was downstairs.

Mr. Gibson. No; I was standing on this far side right next to the wall.

Mr. Ball. And they were in an aisle over there?

Mr. Gibson. Well, actually, they were two or three aisles over—there's two big main aisles, and then there's another small aisle that runs down the wall.

Mr. Ball. Was there any other patron of the theatre along the way that they went?

Mr. Gibson. I don't know this, as I said, for a fact—this is what a lady at the show told me. She sent Butch, the head usher up on the stage to guard the exit back there and where he come from I don't know, because as I said,74 when they took him to the floor, then I turned around and walked out into the lobby and one officer hollered, "Lock the doors," and Butch came through there to the doors.

Mr. Ball. But you didn't see other officers go up to any other patrons of the theatre over there on their way to Oswald?

Mr. Gibson. No.

Mr. Ball. As they went along—they finally walked up and outside?

Mr. Gibson. No; they were just looking in general it appeared to me.

Mr. Ball. Was there anyone who was sitting closer to them than Oswald was?

Mr. Gibson. Gosh—I don't know—it's hard to remember, when you try.

Mr. Ball. You don't know why they went up to him and not someone else?

Mr. Gibson. Well, as I said—I don't think they went up to him. As I said, the first time I saw him in the theatre definitely was when he was standing in the aisle with a gun in his hand. Now, somebody told me that Oswald jumped up and whirled around and said, "This is it," but this is something I don't know, so this is hearsay.

Mr. Ball. But would you think he stood up first before any police officer got to him? Or that near him?

Mr. Gibson. He had to, because they took him from a standing position to the floor and he was standing up.

Mr. Ball. Did you see them before they came up to him?

Mr. Gibson. Yes; I was watching them there, I was just standing in the corner—as I said, just looking around the corner—there is a chance you can see in the corner and I was looking around it and as I said, I don't know whether he got up and whirled around or what he did, but when I saw him he was facing the police with a gun in his hand.

Mr. Ball. The first you saw him he was standing?

Mr. Gibson. He was standing.

Mr. Ball. And you didn't hear him say anything except on his way out?

Mr. Gibson. Except on his way out—is the only thing I heard him say.

Mr. Ball. This will be written up and you can come down and sign it if you want to, or you can waive your signature. What would you like to do?

Mr. Gibson. Well, I said it, I might as well sign it.

Mr. Ball. Okay. You will be called in to come down and sign it.

Mr. Gibson. Thanks very much.

Mr. Ball. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF JAMES PUTNAM

The testimony of James Putnam was taken at 11 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission.

Mr. Ely. Would you stand up and be sworn, please?

Mr. Putnam. All right.

Mr. Ely. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Putnam. I do.

Mr. Ely. Would you state your name, please?

Mr. Putnam. James Putnam.

Mr. Ely. And where do you live?

Mr. Putnam. 2015 Joan Drive.

Mr. Ely. What is your occupation?

Mr. Putnam. Police officer—sergeant of police.

Mr. Ely. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. Putnam. Ten years and four months.

Mr. Ely. Could you give us something of your background before you started75 to work for the police department—where you went to school and what you did before you became a policeman?

Mr. Putnam. Is this pertinent?

Mr. Ely. Where did you go to school?

Mr. Putnam. Is this pertinent to the deposition? Well, if you want it, I will give it to you. I went to school at Charleston, S.C. and I was in the Navy for about 7 years.

Mr. Ely. And did you go directly from the Navy to the police department?

Mr. Putnam. No; from the Navy I went to work for Lone Star Gas Co. here in Dallas. From there I went to work for Prudential Insurance Co. from which I was recalled into the Navy again, and when I was released, I went back to the insurance company, and from there I applied for employment with the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. Ely. Thank you, sergeant. Now, on November 22, 1963, were you on duty with the police department?

Mr. Putnam. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ely. Did your duties on that day involve you in any way in the investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy?

Mr. Putnam. Yes.

Mr. Ely. What was the nature of your involvement with that investigation?

Mr. Putnam. Just to assist in covering of the Book Depository Building and aiding in searching the building.

Mr. Ely. Did your duties involve you in any way in the investigation of the shooting of Officer Tippit?

Mr. Putnam. No.

Mr. Ely. Could you state the nature of your specialty with the police department? What sort of work do you specialize in?

Mr. Putnam. My assignment then and now is sergeant of police, supervising patrolmen in the radio patrol division.

(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Putnam Exhibit No. 1," for identification.)

Mr. Ely. Sergeant, I will show you first a map which is designated Putnam Deposition Exhibit No. 1, and I will also show you two documents designated Sawyer Exhibits A and B, which purport to be transcripts of radio logs from the 22d of November. Now, although you would have no personal knowledge of where Officer Tippit was assigned that day, assume for purposes of my questioning that his original assignment on the 22d of November was within the area marked 78 on Putnam Exhibit 1. Can you tell me within which district the corner of Lancaster and Eighth Street is?

Mr. Putnam. District 109.

Mr. Ely. And is it correct that here on the exhibit marked Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A there is a call recorded at 12:54 p.m., from 78 to 531 reporting he was at Lancaster and 8th?

Mr. Putnam. Yes; there is.

Mr. Ely. Now, assuming that Officer Tippit was originally assigned to the district numbered 78, taking into account the report that at 12:54 he was within the district marked 109, and also assuming that he later was shot within the district marked 91, would you look at these radio logs and tell us if you find on either one of them any calls which would account for the fact that he had thus come in toward the center of town from the district he was originally assigned to? Feel free to draw upon your general knowledge of the custom in the Dallas Police Department for leaving, or remaining in, one's assigned district.

Mr. Putnam. One transmission here on channel 1, that would be the normal channel that Tippit would be listening to, at 12:43 p.m. on Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit B, is to the attention of all squads in the downtown area, code 3 to Elm and Houston, and with Officer Tippit being assigned to district 78 and allowed the discretion that is allowed in the Dallas Police Department—he would start in the direction of the downtown area. A feasible route would bring him to district 109 and that vicinity.

Mr. Ely. Is there any special reason why that would be a feasible route?

Mr. Putnam. This Houston Street, if you will notice right in this corner—76Houston Street adjoins district 109. It is one of the routes you can use to cross the river into the downtown area. This would be the normal procedure as far as Officer Tippit was concerned, to come in toward the downtown area, unless disregarded and a later transmission on channel 2, after getting his location, advised him to remain at large in the Oak Cliff area. "At large," would indicate that he would feel free to go nearer in the Oak Cliff area, with the idea in mind that he would be looking for any suspect or any suspicious circumstance that might be related to the shooting.

Mr. Ely. Are districts 78, 109, and 91 all located within the Oak Cliff area?

Mr. Putnam. They are located in the Oak Cliff area.

Mr. Ely. All right, thank you, Sergeant Putnam, I believe that's all.

TESTIMONY OF LT. RIO S. PIERCE

The testimony of Lt. Rio S. Pierce was taken at 11:25 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission.

Mr. Ely. Would you stand and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Pierce. I do.

Mr. Ely. Lieutenant, I am here as a representative of the President's Commission which is looking into all the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, and we have been informed that you might have information which would help us in this inquiry.

Mr. Ely. Would you state your full name, please?

Mr. Pierce. Rio Sam Pierce.

Mr. Ely. And where do you live?

Mr. Pierce. 3227 South Edgefield.

Mr. Ely. Could you tell us what your occupation is?

Mr. Pierce. Officer—police officer.

Mr. Ely. And what rank do you hold?

Mr. Pierce. Lieutenant.

Mr. Ely. You are a lieutenant with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. Pierce. That's right.

Mr. Ely. Could you tell us something about what you did before you started to work for the police department?

Mr. Pierce. Well, I was raised on a farm out in West Texas and engaged in farming practically all of my life up until I went in the Marine Corps. After I got out of the Marine Corps in 1946, in April I believe it was, I came to the Dallas Police Department in August 1946.

Mr. Ely. Could you tell us, please, what your job is? What do you specialize in with the police department?

Mr. Pierce. I am assigned as a lieutenant in the patrol division out of the central station.

Mr. Ely. Now, were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. Pierce. I was not.

Mr. Ely. Were you in Dallas on that date?

Mr. Pierce. Part of the day. I went to Ennis, Tex., early that morning and returned to Dallas about—oh, it was approximately 1 or 1:30 p.m.

Mr. Ely. Did you have anything to do with the investigation of the killing of either President Kennedy or Officer Tippit?

Mr. Pierce. No, sir.

Mr. Ely. I will show you three exhibits, one is a map designated Putnam Exhibit No. 1. The other two are designated Sawyer Deposition Exhibits A and B, and are copies of the Dallas Police Department's radio logs for November 22, 1963.

77 If you will for the moment assume that Officer Tippit was assigned to patrol the district marked No. 78 on Putnam Exhibit No. 1. Can you explain why, subsequent to the shooting of the President, Officer Tippit would be in the district marked 109—specifically at the corner of Lancaster and Eighth—at 12:54 p.m., and then would later have proceeded into district 91, which is the area in which he was shot and killed?

Will you look at these radio logs to see if you can find any calls which would lead him to take this route? Use any other information at your disposal to explain to us why he would have gone out of district 78 and over into Nos. 109 and 91?

Mr. Pierce. Well, I see one transmission here that I think would have alerted any officer knowing the fact that the President was in town, at 12:43—I believe this occurred on channel 1—this was taken from channel 1 recordings at 12:43. It says, "Attention all squads of downtown area, code 3 to Elm and Houston with caution."

Mr. Ely. Explain what code 3 means.

Mr. Pierce. That's an emergency. In other words, that is, we have code 1, which is normal driving; we have code 2, and a code 3. In other words, code 3 is your top—proceed with haste and caution. The transmission followed that at 12:44, "Attention all squads, the suspect in the shooting at Elm and Houston is reported to be an unknown white male," and gives the description here—would also be an indication to the squads, and reading this—and I assume that this is the way it came out—a man would have to draw his own judgment, because it hasn't told you yet that the President has been shot, but I would think that any normal police officer would assume that there had been something pertaining to that, probably, and it would be normal procedure for him working in the district he is working in to pull into a closer area to the downtown area, and this district 109, which is, I believe you stated, that as being at Eighth and Lancaster—it doesn't show here on your map, but you have no viaduct—that's about the only place you can cross that river, unless you want to wade.

Mr. Ely. Could you mark on the exhibit with your red pencil where that viaduct would be?

Mr. Pierce. Well, you see, Cadiz Street over here in the downtown area—it also crosses this river and comes on out—may or may not be nearly correct—it isn't too far from wrong—I don't think so—there is two viaducts.

Mr. Ely. The red mark you have just drawn is what?

Mr. Pierce. The red mark is one viaduct that crosses that river and the area where he was at that time, I will just have to use this—Lancaster Street comes in something like that—it isn't marked on here.

Mr. Ely. All right.

Mr. Pierce. But, he wouldn't be too far from that Cadiz Street viaduct. Anyway, they come over that Cadiz Street viaduct, and also you have quite a few apartment houses along there on Lancaster and Marsalis. In other words, there is a large number of people that live over in there. That seemed to me like he was probably using pretty good judgment in getting in that particular area because he would have a chance there to assist from the downtown area there.

Mr. Ely. This transmission to which you referred, the one appearing at 12:43 p.m. on Sawyer Deposition Exhibit B, purports to be directed only to all squads in the downtown area?

Mr. Pierce. That's right.

Mr. Ely. But you think it would be normal even for those squads not located in the downtown area to react?

Mr. Pierce. I would have to call on my experience in the Dallas Police Department. Under normal police procedure we request that the squads stay in their district, but under any emergency situation we do not require that they stay in their district.

Mr. Ely. So, you would characterize this as a normal course of behavior?

Mr. Pierce. It looks like a normal procedure to me.

Mr. Ely. All right. Do you think of anything else that you would want to mention in connection with this, or do you think that just about covers it?

78 Mr. Pierce. Well, like I say, I was on my day off and I would just have to assume what was happening, but I don't know anything in connection with Tippit, but in this location, if that is what you are interested in, that would not be unusual.

Mr. Ely. Well, that's what we are interested in. Thank you very much.

Mr. Pierce. All right, thank you.

TESTIMONY OF CALVIN BUD OWENS

The testimony of Calvin Bud Owens was taken at 11:50 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission.

Mr. Ely. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Owens. I do.

Mr. Ely. Sergeant, I am here as a representative of the President's Commission, which is investigating all of the circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, and we have reason to believe that you might be able to give us some information which would help us.

Mr. Owens. All right.

Mr. Ely. Could you state your full name, please?

Mr. Owens. Calvin Bud Owens.

Mr. Ely. And where do you live, sir?

Mr. Owens. 1830 Melbourne [spelling] M-e-l-b-o-u-r-n-e.

Mr. Ely. In Dallas?

Mr. Owens. That's right.

Mr. Ely. What is your occupation?

Mr. Owens. I am a police officer.

Mr. Ely. And what rank do you hold in the police department?

Mr. Owens. Sergeant.

Mr. Ely. How long have you been with the police department?

Mr. Owens. Twenty-three and a half years.

Mr. Ely. Could you give us a general idea of what you did before you went with the department?

Mr. Owens. How far back?

Mr. Ely. Starting with your schooling, let's say.

Mr. Owens. Most of my schooling was in Dallas. I was born in Madill [spelling] M-a-d-i-l-l, Okla. I started school in Wilburton, Okla., and from there to Shawnee, Okla., and from there to Ennis, Tex., and then to Dallas, and then I went through Winnetka. I'll say I graduated from City Park Grammar School and Forest Avenue High School. After I got out of school in the depression, I went to work at the Baker Hotel as a bellhop. I left there and went up to Oklahoma for approximately a year, came back and went to work at Sears, Roebuck and worked there 2½ years, and then went to work for the public works department in construction, as a chainman in a survey crew until, let's see, that was in 1938. I worked their until the spring of 1940. I worked 2 months in the fire department, left, and went back to engineers. In October 1940, I went to work in the police department. December 1, 1942, I went in the Navy and got out January 6, 1946, and I returned to the police department.

Mr. Ely. And you have been there ever since?

Mr. Owens. Yes.

Mr. Ely. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?

Mr. Owens. I was.

Mr. Ely. And what was the nature of your assignment on that date?

Mr. Owens. Acting lieutenant, Oak Cliff substation.

Mr. Ely. Because you were acting lieutenant in the Oak Cliff substation, would that mean that Officer Tippit would be under your supervision?

79 Mr. Owens. That's true.

Mr. Ely. When and how did you first hear that there had been an incident involving the President of the United States?

Mr. Owens. I had eaten lunch and I was on the way back to the substation—channel 1 was not working properly—some mike—or some radio transmitter had left the mike open and I couldn't hear, and I switched over to channel 2 and heard what sounded like Chief Curry say, "It looks like the President has been hit," so, not knowing what he had been hit with, I go in the substation and hear on the radio where they are sending squads downtown to Elm and Houston, and I called the dispatcher's office and wanted to know if they wanted me downtown. They were very busy and never did answer me, so from that, I assumed that there was a big incident involved and maybe the President had been shot, so I leave 4020 West Illinois where the substation is located and proceed to Elm and Houston, code 3.

Mr. Ely. And what does code 3 mean?

Mr. Owens. It means emergency with red lights and siren on.

Mr. Ely. Thank you.

Mr. Owens. I arrived at Elm and Houston, which is the location of the Texas School Book Depository. Before I arrived, the squad was dispatched to pick up a man—an officer on Stemmons, who had a colored man, who had information regarding the shooting. Since I was close, I stopped and picked up a colored man, a lady and two children, and take them to Elm and Houston, and notified Inspector Sawyer of what I had. He informed me to send them to the sheriff's office where they had set up this interrogation room. I turned them over to a patrolman there with the instructions to take them over to the sheriff's office. I stayed with Inspector Sawyer until I was informed that there was a shooting in Oak Cliff involving a police officer.

Mr. Ely. Do you recall the name of this colored man?

Mr. Owens. No. I told Inspector Sawyer that I was assigned to Oak Cliff and an officer was involved in the shooting, and I was taking off, so I proceeded—I got in my car, and Captain Westbrook and Bill Alexander, an assistant district attorney, also was in the car with me and we started out to—I think the call came out at 400 East 10th or 400 East Jefferson. There was confusion there where the situation was. It was corrected and we went to the scene of the shooting.

Now, right there—here's where I'm not quite sure—I don't know whether I was given the gun and all—but I believe I was given the gun and this was Tippit's gun and shells.

Mr. Ely. Do you recall who gave them to you?

Mr. Owens. No; some officer, but I don't know who it was.

Mr. Ely. And how long did you have the gun and shells in your custody?

Mr. Owens. Well, I had them at the hospital and we put them in a paper envelope, a large paper envelope with some more of his possessions.

Mr. Ely. Did you make any identifying marks on them?

Mr. Owens. No; they were his city issued—his own gun.

Mr. Ely. And do you recall whom you gave them to eventually?

Mr. Owens. No; I believe it was Barton—I'm not sure. I couldn't say positively who I gave them to, to go put them in the property room. In fact, I don't even know whether I gave them to anybody. I might have taken them out to the Oak Cliff substation and put them in our property room—I don't know.

Mr. Ely. Now, you were back at the stage where somebody had given you the gun, and let's go on from there.

Mr. Owens. Yes—we were informed by a man whom I do not know, that the suspect that shot Officer Tippit had run across a vacant lot toward Jefferson, and thrown down his jacket, I think he said, white, I'm not sure. Not finding anybody that had seen him come out of that area, we blocked off that square block.

Mr. Ely. Can you tell us specifically what block you blocked off?

Mr. Owens. I believe it was the 400 block of East Jefferson—the 400 or 500 block. It was this block bound by Jefferson, 10th, Patton, and Denver—I believe that was the area. Then we started searching the buildings and houses—there are some old two-story houses there used as businesses.

80 Mr. Ely. What was the nature of your search of these buildings? Did you just look through the halls?

Mr. Owens. Well, I didn't go in. I was standing on the outside and the other officers were going in. I was covering off. Then, we heard over the radio that some officer, who by the number, I took to be a three-wheeler motorcycle officer had seen someone answering the description, go into the basement of the library, which is on the corner of Marsalis and Jefferson, which was about two blocks away. Quite a few of us left that area we were at and proceeded to the library, covered it off, and they brought out the one that they thought was the suspect, but he fit the general description, but he was not the one we were looking for. He was an employee of the library that heard the President had gotten shot and he had been to lunch and he was running over there to tell them that the President got shot.

Mr. Ely. In other words, someone saw this employee run into the library, and that's the reason you came in. He had just run into the library?

Mr. Owens. That's the man that had run across Jefferson and run into the basement of the library, so I went back to the scene of the shooting of Officer Tippit and another call had come and some of my men yelled to me that they had a suspect in the Texas Theatre, and everyone left there, but nobody was left to help guard the scene except the crime lab man, so I remained at the scene, and everybody else went to the Texas Theatre.

Mr. Ely. Do you remember who the crime lab man was who was there?

Mr. Owens. At the time I thought it was Captain Doughty [spelling] D-o-u-g-h-t-y. They finished up taking the pictures and I left the scene and went to Methodist Hospital where Officer Tippit had been taken, and I was taken back to the room where he was taken, and in just a brief examination of the body I saw where one bullet had entered his right chest about the pocket and went through a package of cigarettes. Another one hit him about the center of the chest and hit a button, and another one, I believe, was in his right temple, I'm not sure which temple it was, but those three wounds, I did see. I don't know whether he was shot any more or not. I remained at the hospital for quite a time, and then I went back to the Oak Cliff substation where I was assigned.

Mr. Ely. And because you were assigned to the Oak Cliff substation, you at no time during these 2 days or so went into the main police headquarters; is that correct?

Mr. Owens. What, now?

Mr. Ely. You didn't go to the main police headquarters because you were assigned to the Oak Cliff substation?

Mr. Owens. No; that's right.

Mr. Ely. Now, I show you a map which is labeled Putnam Deposition Exhibit No. 1. Could you tell us what sort of a map this is?

Mr. Owens. It is what we call a district map of the various districts of the city of Dallas.

Mr. Ely. The various districts to which patrolmen are assigned, is that correct?

Mr. Owens. It is what it was set up for. Now, there isn't a squad for each numbered district. Some squads have two or more numbers. I mean, the districts cover that.

Mr. Ely. And could you tell us to which district or districts on that map Officer Tippit was assigned on November 22, 1963?

Mr. Owens. He was assigned to district 78. Now, I don't know whether we were short any squads that day or not, and if we were, he would be assigned to cover another district also. His call number would still be 78.

Mr. Ely. Would his call number be 78 even if he were outside the district?

Mr. Owens. Oh, yes.

Mr. Ely. I show you now one of the radio logs which is designated "Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A." Am I correct in saying that at 12:54 p.m., according to this log, Officer Tippit reported by radio that he was then at the corner of Lancaster and Eighth?

Mr. Owens. That's right.

81 Mr. Ely. Now, in which district on this map would the corner of Lancaster and Eighth fall?

Mr. Owens. In district 109.

Mr. Ely. That would be district 109. In which district on the map was Officer Tippit shot?

Mr. Owens. In district 91.

Mr. Ely. Now, we would like to have your opinion as to why Officer Tippit, who was assigned to district 78, would have been in district 109 at 12:54 p.m. and then later in district 91? In giving us your answer, please feel free to refer to both of these radio logs, which are Sawyer Deposition Exhibits A and B, and also draw upon your experience with the Dallas Police Department and the common procedure for reacting to an emergency.

Mr. Owens. It says here on channel 1, this is Sawyer Deposition Exhibit B, "Attention all squads in the downtown area, code 3, to Elm and Houston with caution," and knowing that the President's parade was going to be down in that area and also at 12:44 this: "attention all squads, the suspect in the shooting, Elm and Houston, is reported to be an unknown white male, approximately 30, slender build, height, 5 feet 6 inches, weight, 165 pounds, reported to be armed with what is thought to be a .30 caliber rifle, no further description or information at this time;" and then it recites at 12:45 signal 19 involving the President—that was at 12:45——

Mr. Ely. And signal 19 means what?

Mr. Owens. A shooting—anything of that magnitude in the shooting of the President is one of the greatest magnitudes, and any officer would proceed as near that location as possible to try to apprehend whoever had done it.

Mr. Ely. Well, would somebody in an outlying district head for Elm and Houston itself, or would he just come in closer?

Mr. Owens. He would move in that direction, and when they had ordered all downtown squads to proceed to Elm and Houston, knowing that he was going to have to answer calls in the downtown area while they are there, and if you know that in all probability you may get called in, and—instead of the district you are in, you are going to head down there so it won't take you near as long, and also you can still be in the area if the suspect comes your way, you will have a better chance of apprehending him.

Mr. Ely. So, you think Tippit might have been filling in for the people whom he knew had been pulled in to Elm and Houston?

Mr. Owens. That's what I think—not only filling in, but also looking for the suspect, because he heard about the shooting and the general description of the suspect, and not knowing which way he went, but he could have gone any way, then he is going to head downtown as soon as possible so if he sees someone answering that description, he can apprehend him.

Mr. Ely. You would say it would be normal procedure for an officer in district 78, which is located out in the outlying districts, to head downtown in any emergency?

Mr. Owens. That's true.

Mr. Ely. Could you perhaps give us an explanation of why he headed over toward 109 and 91? That doesn't seem to be the most direct route.

Mr. Owens. According to this map—it doesn't show all the things on there—it looks like you would have to zigzag quite a bit, but you wouldn't. You could go down Corinth Street and go across the viaduct, but that would get him down on Industrial, which would still be a lot of traffic to go through. He could go down Clarendon to Marsalis and go North Ewing and then get over to Lancaster, and a would give him a straight shoot to the Houston Street viaduct, which would take him right to Elm and Houston.

Mr. Ely. So that you think a path of going from 78 to 109 to 91 would be a more or less logical route for getting into the center of town?

Mr. Owens. Yes; I do.

Mr. Ely. On the 22d of November, did you, yourself, have an area which you were patroling?

Mr. Owens. I was supervising all of the Oak Cliff area, and since I was acting lieutenant, and I made the assignments for that day, I was at the station at 4020 West Illinois at the time.

82 Mr. Ely. In which numbered area is that located?

Mr. Owens. That would be on district 97, and no one sent me, but when I heard all of this—so many squads getting called to report there, then I went.

Mr. Ely. You headed toward the downtown area yourself?

Mr. Owens. Yes; I went to Elm and Houston myself.

Mr. Ely. Even though you didn't have a specific order to go in there either?

Mr. Owens. That's right—that's true.

Mr. Ely. Officer McDonald, who testified before the Commission, told us that he went to the corner of Elm and Houston, do you know which numbered area on this map he was assigned to?

Mr. Owens. He was working district 95, which covers district 95 and 96.

Mr. Ely. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record between Counsel Ely and the witness Owens.)

Mr. Owens. I don't know what district Officer J. L. Angel was working, but it was my understanding that he also went to Elm and Houston.

Mr. Ely. Well, he was working somewhere in the Oak Cliff area, was he?

Mr. Owens. Yes; he was working in the Oak Cliff area under the same sergeant that Officer Tippit was working under, so he would be in the same general area which covers these districts in here.

Mr. Ely. That would be districts 82 and 85?

Mr. Owens. No—81, 82, 85, 86, 87, or 76, 77, 78, or 79—that's that sergeant's district.

Mr. Ely. All right, thank you very much, sergeant.

Mr. Owens. I don't know of anything else—as I say, I couldn't remember where they handed me the gun. I knew it was at the scene because my wife said she saw it on television and I had his gun, and when I asked her about it she said it wasn't the suspect's gun she knew because she has been a policeman's wife long enough to know I wouldn't be handling a gun like that if it was the suspect's.

Mr. Ely. All right, Sergeant, thank you very much.

Mr. Owens. All right, thank you.

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM ARTHUR SMITH

The testimony of William Arthur Smith was taken at 4:25 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Ball. Mr. Smith, stand up and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give before the Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Sit down.

Mr. Ball. State your name, please.

Mr. Smith. William Arthur Smith.

Mr. Ball. And where do you live?

Mr. Smith. 328½ East Davis.

Mr. Ball. What is your age?

Mr. Smith. Twenty.

Mr. Ball. You live with whom? Whom do you live with?

Mr. Smith. My mother.

Mr. Ball. At this address?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Tell me something about yourself, where you were born and where you went to school.

Mr. Smith. I was born in Pine Bluff, Ark., and went to school Wason Chapel.

Mr. Ball. How far through school did you go?

Mr. Smith. Three months into the 12th grade.

83 Mr. Ball. Three months into the 12th grade?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did you do after that?

Mr. Smith. Been working ever since, most of the time.

Mr. Ball. What kind of work do you do? Have you done?

Mr. Smith. Corrugated box.

Mr. Ball. Beg your pardon?

Mr. Smith. Corrugated box.

Mr. Ball. That is where you are working now?

Mr. Smith. No, sir; working at a metal shop.

Mr. Ball. Any metal shop?

Mr. Smith. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Have you ever been in trouble with the police?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What kind of trouble did you get in?

Mr. Smith. Auto theft.

Mr. Ball. You're on probation now, aren't you?

Mr. Smith. Two years.

Mr. Ball. Two years? Ever have any other trouble?

Mr. Smith. Tickets.

Mr. Ball. Just tickets? Traffic tickets?

Mr. Smith. Two right now.

Mr. Ball. You ever have any trouble as a juvenile?

Mr. Smith. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, on November 22, 1963, were you working any place?

Mr. Smith. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Didn't have a job?

Mr. Smith. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Where did you spend the day that day?

Mr. Smith. 505 East 10th.

Mr. Ball. Why were you there?

Mr. Smith. Visiting a friend.

Mr. Ball. What is his name?

Mr. Smith. Jimmy Burt.

Mr. Ball. When did you go over there that day?

Mr. Smith. In the morning. In the morning.

Mr. Ball. In the morning?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What time did you leave there that day?

Mr. Smith. In the evening.

Mr. Ball. So, you spent the whole day there?

Mr. Smith. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Did something happen a little after 1 o'clock there that day that you noticed?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir; policeman got shot.

Mr. Ball. Now, at the time the policeman was shot, where were you?

Mr. Smith. In the front yard, at 505 East 10th.

Mr. Ball. Who was with you?

Mr. Smith. Jimmy Burt.

Mr. Ball. That was about how far from where the policeman got shot?

Mr. Smith. One block.

Mr. Ball. That would be about a block east, wouldn't it?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Policeman was shot in the 400 block?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And you were in the 500 block?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What called your attention to this incident?

Mr. Smith. I heard some shots.

Mr. Ball. And what? You looked down that way?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did you see?

84 Mr. Smith. Saw Oswald running and policeman falling.

Mr. Ball. Did you see his face, or just his back?

Mr. Smith. Saw the side of him, the side and back of him when he was running.

Mr. Ball. Did you see him before he ran?

Mr. Smith. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Saw the side of his face?

Mr. Smith. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And he ran in what direction?

Mr. Smith. West.

Mr. Ball. Did you follow him?

Mr. Smith. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you go down to where the policeman was shot?

Mr. Smith. Yes.

Mr. Ball. What did you see?

Mr. Smith. Saw the policeman lying on the ground. I mean on the street.

Mr. Ball. And did a crowd gather around there?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. How long did you stay there?

Mr. Smith. About 45 minutes.

Mr. Ball. Did you give your name to the police?

Mr. Smith. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Why?

Mr. Smith. Because I was on probation. I thought it might hurt my probation record.

Mr. Ball. All right; you did tell someone you had seen it, didn't you?

Mr. Smith. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Who?

Mr. Smith. This boy I ran around with.

Mr. Ball. What's his name?

Mr. Smith. James Markham.

Mr. Ball. Is he the son of Helen Markham?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did you talk to her?

Mr. Smith. No, sir; she talks to me.

Mr. Ball. Mrs. Markham talked to you?

Mr. Smith. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And did you tell Mrs. Markham?

Mr. Smith. I told her what I saw and that is the reason I am here, I a——

Mr. Ball. Did the police come out and see you?

Mr. Smith. The FBI.

Mr. Ball. The FBI did? Did you tell them the same story you told me?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, did you see Oswald on television?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. On the night of the shooting?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did it appear to you to be the same man you had seen?

Mr. Smith. He had lighter hair than he did when I saw him.

Mr. Ball. Well, now, wait a minute. You mean the man you saw on television——

Mr. Smith. Had lighter hair.

Mr. Ball. Mr. Smith—than the man you saw running away?

Mr. Smith. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Is that right?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What color hair did the man have that you saw running away?

Mr. Smith. Brown, brownish-black. It was dark.

Mr. Ball. How did the hair appear on television?

Mr. Smith. Looked blond.

Mr. Ball. Were you later shown a picture of Oswald?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

85 Mr. Ball. By whom?

Mr. Smith. FBI agent.

Mr. Ball. What was the color of the hair in the picture?

Mr. Smith. Brown.

Mr. Ball. What did you see? What did you tell the FBI agent about the appearance of the man in the picture?

Mr. Smith. I said it looked more like him than it did on television.

Mr. Ball. And did you think when he showed you the picture that it looked anything like the man you had seen running away?

Mr. Smith. What I saw of him; yes.

Mr. Ball. First time you ever saw this man was after you heard these shots?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Is that right? You had never seen him walking?

Mr. Smith. No.

Mr. Ball. You hadn't seen him walking in front of the house——

Mr. Smith. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Where you were standing?

Mr. Smith. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. What kind of clothes did he have on when he shot the officer?

Mr. Smith. He had on dark pants—just a minute. He had on dark pants and a sport coat of some kind. I can't really remember very well.

Mr. Ball. I will show you a coat——

Mr. Smith. This looks like it.

Mr. Ball. This is Commission's Exhibit 162, a grey, zippered jacket. Have you ever seen this before?

Mr. Smith. Yes, sir; that looks like what he had on. A jacket.

Mr. Ball. That is the jacket he had on?

Mr. Smith. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Now, when the deposition is completed it will be written up and you will have a right to look it over and sign it, or if you want to you can waive your signature. They will accept your waiver and send it on to the Commission without it. Do you have any choice on that?

Mr. Smith. I will sign it. It don't make any difference to me.

Mr. Ball. Would you just as leave waive your signature?

Mr. Smith. Ever what that means.

Mr. Ball. That means you don't have to sign it.

Mr. Smith. I will sign it.

Mr. Ball. Do you want to sign it?

Mr. Smith. Yes; I will sign it.

Mr. Ball. Okay. Do you have a telephone number?

Mr. Smith. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Well, the young lady will notify you when you can come in and sign it.

I thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE JEFFERSON APPLIN, JR.

The testimony of George Jefferson Applin, Jr. was taken at 4:05 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Ball. Will you stand up, Mr. Applin, and we—raise your right hand to be sworn, please.

Mr. Applin. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give for this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Applin. I do.

Mr. Ball. Will you be seated, please, and state your name for the record.

86 Mr. Applin. George Jefferson Applin, Jr.

Mr. Ball. Where do you live?

Mr. Applin. 714 East Hull, Denison, Tex.

Mr. Ball. What is your occupation?

Mr. Applin. Well, my occupation, common laborer, but I am working for Phillips 66 there in Denison, service station.

Mr. Ball. You have come into Dallas from Denison, haven't you?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Well, that is about 68 miles?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And you are entitled to get compensation for your transportation?

Mr. Applin. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And we'll have your name and address in the record, and I will try to make arrangements for that information to take care of your expenses. You came in when? This morning?

Mr. Applin. No; it was about 15 minutes after 2 o'clock, when I came in here.

Mr. Ball. Came into Dallas?

Mr. Applin. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And——

Mr. Applin. No; I was here at 2 o'clock, but I had a flat and my car stalled on me about three or four blocks over.

Mr. Ball. And you intend to return home tonight, do you?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. So, you won't have any hotel expense, will you?

Mr. Applin. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, tell me something about yourself, where you were born and where you went to school, and how far in school, what you have done since then?

Mr. Applin. Well, I was born in Madona Hospital in Denison, and lived there pretty near all my life.

Mr. Ball. How old are you?

Mr. Applin. Twenty-two.

Mr. Ball. Did you go to school?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; I went to LaMar School and junior high.

Mr. Ball. And how far did you go? Finished junior high?

Mr. Applin. No, sir; I went to the eighth grade.

Mr. Ball. Have you been beyond the eighth grade?

Mr. Applin. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. What did you do after that?

Mr. Applin. Well, I helped my daddy some, and got odd jobs and stuff.

Mr. Ball. Live with your mother now?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; I do. I live with my parents.

Mr. Ball. Your mother and father?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. You have been doing mostly common labor, have you?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; mostly common labor.

Mr. Ball. Ever been in trouble with the law of any sort?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; I have.

Mr. Ball. What kind of trouble?

Mr. Applin. Burglary.

Mr. Ball. When was that?

Mr. Applin. In 1963.

Mr. Ball. Did you do any time?

Mr. Applin. No, sir; I got a probated sentence for it.

Mr. Ball. That is the only trouble you have ever had?

Mr. Applin. Well, for—except for minor traffic violations.

Mr. Ball. Outside of that you haven't had any trouble?

Mr. Applin. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. Now, November 22, 1963, were you in Dallas?

Mr. Applin. Yes; I believe I was.

Mr. Ball. What were you doing here?

Mr. Applin. Well, I was working for the Rollform Corp.

Mr. Ball. How do you spell it?

87 Mr. Applin. Well, I have got one of their checks—check stubs here in my pocket, I believe. At least I think I have. Here it is [indicating].

Mr. Ball. What were you doing in Dallas?

Mr. Applin. Working.

Mr. Ball. Working here in Dallas?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What kind of work?

Mr. Applin. Well, I was working as, open-head crane operator, and painter and front-end loader.

Mr. Ball. Did you go to the picture show that afternoon?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Ball. How did you happen to be off duty that day?

Mr. Applin. They was installing a new cutting press for the rollers, and they did not need me, so, they let me off for 2 days.

Mr. Ball. For 2 days?

Mr. Applin. For 2 days.

Mr. Ball. What did you do? Go to the picture show?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Ball. What time of day did you go there?

Mr. Applin. Well, actually, I went to—I was over in Oak Cliff, around about, I guess, about 12 o'clock, I imagine is what time it was. I was there and the show hadn't opened up, so, I was sitting in my car listening to the radio up until the time that the show opened.

Mr. Ball. You went in the show when it opened?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Paid your way?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And where did you take your seat? What part of the theatre?

Mr. Applin. About six rows down, I got in the middle aisle, about the middle of the chairs.

Mr. Ball. Middle aisle, six rows from the rear?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And you were how far from the middle aisle into the row of seats?

Mr. Applin. Well, about—seemed quite a little while since I thought about this. I guess I was about four or five seats over from the aisle.

Mr. Ball. From the aisle. Now, did something happen there during that showing of that picture that you remember?

Mr. Applin. Well, I know this much, Audie Murphy introduced the picture.

Mr. Ball. Then some police officers came in there?

Mr. Applin. No, sir; the lights came on.

Mr. Ball. Then what do you remember happening?

Mr. Applin. I seen the officers come down the right-hand aisle.

Mr. Ball. From the rear, or from the front?

Mr. Applin. From the rear.

Mr. Ball. Come in from the screen side, or the place you enter?

Mr. Applin. Where you enter it.

Mr. Ball. From your rear?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; came in on the right-hand aisle over against the wall.

Mr. Ball. Did he have anything in his hands?

Mr. Applin. Yes; I believe he had a shotgun. Might have been a rifle.

Mr. Ball. What else did you see?

Mr. Applin. Well, when I seen him, I was wondering what was the matter and what about the lights.

Mr. Ball. You got up and ran up to the front?

Mr. Applin. Went to the front to find out what was happened—was happened—happening. As I was going up an officer passed me going down and I stopped to find out.

Mr Ball. Did you ask him?

Mr. Applin. No, sir; he passed me before I got a chance to ask him.

Mr. Ball. What did he do?

Mr. Applin. Went to the front and turned around and started back up.

88 Mr. Ball. Started back up the aisle?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Towards you?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And what did you see him do?

Mr. Applin. Well, he stopped and asked two boys sitting down in the front, asked them to stand up and——

Mr. Ball. Did he search them?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; they shuffled them down.

Mr. Ball. Did he search you?

Mr. Applin. No, sir; they came on up to Oswald, where he was sitting.

Mr. Ball. Where was he sitting?

Mr. Applin. I—he was sitting, I guess, about 3 or 4 rows down.

Mr. Ball. You mean from the rear of the theatre?

Mr. Applin. From the rear.

Mr. Ball. And how far over from the aisle?

Mr. Applin. I guess that would be about three seats. They was sitting about two or three seats.

Mr. Ball. What did you see him do?

Mr. Applin. He—started off, the officer said, "Will you stand up, please?" And he stood up.

Mr. Ball. How close were you to the officer and this man when you heard the officer say, "Stand up"?

Mr. Applin. I guess it was about—it was not over four seats down from the back, rear.

Mr. Ball. Were you at the rear?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; I was at the rear of the show.

Mr. Ball. You were at the rear of the show?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; well, there was a partition here. A partition here [indicating], and there was about, oh, I guess about four rows down from me.

Mr. Ball. All right. In other words, the officer hadn't reached you yet, when he asked Oswald to stand up?

Mr. Applin. No, sir.

Mr. Ball. You stood up and went toward the rear of the theatre, did you?

Mr. Applin. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And going to ask the officer what was going on?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Then, you were about four rows away from where Oswald was——

Mr. Applin. Apprehended.

Mr. Ball. And did you hear the officer, what he said?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; heard mainly what both of them said.

Mr. Ball. What did the officer say?

Mr. Applin. The officer said, "Will you stand up, please."

Mr. Ball. What did the man say?

Mr. Applin. Well, he just stood up.

Mr. Ball. Did he say anything?

Mr. Applin. No, sir; I didn't hear him say anything at that time.

Mr. Ball. And what happened then?

Mr. Applin. Well, when he stood up, the officer stepped over to search him down. The officer, Oswald, or the man, took a swing at him. When he did, the officer grabbed him.

Mr. Ball. Took a swing at him with his fist?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. Ball. With his left or right?

Mr. Applin. Right fist.

Mr. Ball. Took a swing at him and what happened then?

Mr. Applin. Well, the officer, I heard him say, "Here he is." And during the proceeding of that, I guess about 5 or 10 seconds later, there was another—I think it was two officers, or one, passed me and ran down there to him.

Mr. Ball. Did you see a gun?

Mr. Applin. Well, the gun didn't come into view until after about four or five officers were there.

89 Mr. Ball. Then did you see a gun?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; but only—there was one gun. The pistol. It came into view before any of the other officers got there.

Mr. Ball. That is what I mean. What do you say happened about that? Who pulled a gun?

Mr. Applin. Well, anyhow, the officer was facing this way [indicating] and Oswald was facing this way [indicating]. And then the gun was pointed out that way [indicating].

Mr. Ball. Wait a minute. I can't follow you when you say it was "this way," and "this way," sir. You told me that this officer asked Oswald to stand up?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Did he stand up?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. Ball. Then did he put his hand some place on Oswald?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; along about——

Mr. Ball. Where?

Mr. Applin. I guess about his hips.

Mr. Ball. Then what did Oswald do?

Mr. Applin. He took a right-hand swing at him.

Mr. Ball. What did the officer do?

Mr. Applin. The officer grabbed him then.

Mr. Ball. Had you seen the pistol up to that time?

Mr. Applin. No, sir; there was not one in view then.

Mr. Ball. How soon after that did you see the pistol?

Mr. Applin. I guess it was about—I guess it was about 2 or 3 seconds.

Mr. Ball. Who pulled the pistol?

Mr. Applin. I guess it was Oswald, because—for one reason, that he had on a short sleeve shirt, and I seen a man's arm that was connected to the gun.

Mr. Ball. What did the officer do?

Mr. Applin. Well, the officer was scuffling with him there, and——

Mr. Ball. Did you hear anything?

Mr. Applin. Well, about the only thing I heard was the snap of the gun and the officer saying, "Here he is."

Mr. Ball. You heard the snap of a gun?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Are you familiar with guns?

Mr. Applin. Well, yes, sir; I am familiar with a few guns.

Mr. Ball. Pistols? Have you ever shot a pistol?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; I have shot my daddy's nine-shot .22 pistol.

Mr. Ball. Sounded like a hammer of a pistol falling?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. Then what happened after that? You say several officers came down?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; they started wrestling and scuffling with him.

Mr. Ball. How many of them?

Mr. Applin. Well, there was about five officers, I believe.

Mr. Ball. Did you see any officers strike him?

Mr. Applin. I seen one strike him with a shotgun.

Mr. Ball. How did he do it?

Mr. Applin. He grabbed the muzzle of the gun and drawed it back and swung and hit him in the back.

Mr. Ball. With what?

Mr. Applin. With the butt end of the gun.

Mr. Ball. Looked like a hard blow?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; it—I guess it was. You could—yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And he struck Oswald where?

Mr. Applin. In the back.

Mr. Ball. What part of the back?

Mr. Applin. Well, somewheres along in the middle of the back, somewheres.

Mr. Ball. With the butt end of a shotgun?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

90 Mr. Ball. Did you see the officer strike Oswald with his fist?

Mr. Applin. No, sir; I do not believe so.

Mr. Ball. Now, how many officers were struggling with Oswald when you saw the officer strike him with the butt end of the shotgun?

Mr. Applin. I believe about four.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever see them handcuff Oswald?

Mr. Applin. Uhuh?

Mr. Ball. Did you see them handcuff the man?

Mr. Applin. No, sir; I didn't actually see the handcuffing.

Mr. Ball. What did you see them do after the struggle?

Mr. Applin. Well, they were scuffling, and they were over to the middle, about the far side of the aisle, and come up the other side of the aisle.

Mr. Ball. With the man?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And then when they went out, did they come out through the doors?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; they came up through and one of the officers hollered out, "Don't let nobody see him," and they came in right behind me.

Mr. Ball. In behind you?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And went on out?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And did you go out and follow them out?

Mr. Applin. No, sir; I went out to the candy counter out there and the officer said, if there's anybody in there that seen it—and asked—there was about two or three, the candyman himself, and said—that one boy said that he seen him, through the front—I mean out from behind the picture where it came out—supposed to came out behind the picture.

Mr. Ball. Did you give them your name there?

Mr. Applin. He asked my name and address and where I was staying at the time.

Mr. Ball. Later did you go down to the police station and make a statement?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Ball. When?

Mr. Applin. Well, it was after—I guess after they got everybody's name. I rode down with three officers.

Mr. Ball. That same day, did you?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. You didn't go back to the picture show?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; I did. There was a patrolman that carried me back out and I was going to see the rest of it, but I never did get back in time to.

Mr. Ball. You didn't get to see the show?

Mr. Applin. Well, I seen part of it, but I didn't get to see all of it.

Mr. Ball. Did you ever see the man they arrested at the theatre?

Mr. Applin. No, sir; I didn't see him after that.

Mr. Ball. Now, I have talked to you a little while before we took your deposition, didn't I?

Mr. Applin. I wasn't actually; no, sir.

Mr. Ball. Well, I mean, you and I came up——

Mr. Applin. Oh, yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And we sat and talked a few minutes?

Mr. Applin. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. Ball. And you have told us everything that you told me before——

Mr. Applin. This was taken here?

Mr. Ball. Before it was taken.

Mr. Applin. Yes; I believe I did.

Mr. Ball. This will be written up, and you will have a chance to read it and sign it. You can waive your signature and we'll forward it to the Commission just as you have said it here in the way this young lady has written it up. Does it make any difference to you now?

Mr. Applin. No, sir; it don't make any difference. Anyway you do it.

Mr. Ball. You are waiving your signature then, are you?

Mr. Applin. Well, I will sign it if you want me to.

91 Mr. Ball. You don't have to if you don't want to. In other words, but you may if you want to.

Mr. Applin. I can sign it. If I sign it then you won't have any trouble with it, will you?

Mr. Ball. Well, no.

Mr. Applin. Well, then, I will sign it for you then.

Mr. Ball. Okay, fine, that is all, Mr. Applin.

Mr. Applin. But, there is one thing puzzling me.

Mr. Ball. What is that?

Mr. Applin. And I don't even know if it has any bearing on the case, but there was one guy sitting in the back row right there where I was standing at, and I said to him, I said, "Buddy, you'd better move. There is a gun." And he says—just sat there. He was just back like this. Just like this. Just watching.

Mr. Ball. Just watching the show?

Mr. Applin. No; I don't think he could have seen the show. Just sitting just like this, just looking at me.

Mr. Ball. Did you know the man?

Mr. Applin. No; I didn't.

Mr. Ball. Ever seen him since?

Mr. Applin. No, sir; didn't. I tapped him on the shoulder and said, "Buddy, you'd better move," and——

Mr. Ball. Were you scared?

Mr. Applin. Well, when I seen the gun I was.

Mr. Ball. Did you tell the police officer about this man?

Mr. Applin. No, sir; at the time, I didn't think about it, but I did tell—I didn't even think about it when I went before the Secret Service man, but I did tell one of the FBI men about it.

Mr. Ball. Okay. I guess that is all, Mr. Applin. Thank you very much.

Mr. Applin. All right.

TESTIMONY OF RAY HAWKINS

The testimony of Ray Hawkins was taken at 9:50 a.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Ball. Will you raise your hand and take the oath, please?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Hawkins. I do.

Mr. Ball. Will you state your name, please?

Mr. Hawkins. Ray Hawkins.

Mr. Ball. And your address, where do you live now?

Mr. Hawkins. 7319 Cortland as of today. I am moving today.

Mr. Ball. What is your business or occupation?

Mr. Hawkins. I am with the Dallas Police Department. I am an accident investigator.

Mr. Ball. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. Hawkins. It will be 11 years in June.

Mr. Ball. Tell me something about yourself—where you were born and your education and what you have done?

Mr. Hawkins. I was born in Dallas at Parkland Hospital. I attended the Dallas schools except for 2 years when I lived in Denison and I served 3 years and 4 months in the Coast Guard. I worked at the post office after getting out of the service and then I worked for Dallas Power & Light before coming to the police department some 11 years ago. I have been in the traffic division 892 years last month, which my primary duty is accident investigation. Before this time I served about 3 years in the radio patrol division.

Mr. Ball. On November 22, 1963, you were on duty, were you?

Mr. Hawkins. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. Ball. What were your hours of duty?

Mr. Hawkins. I was working the 7 a.m. to 3 p.m. shift that day.

Mr. Ball. And were you assigned some special duty because of the presence of the President in the city?

Mr. Hawkins. No, sir; on this day I was working accidents, which is my regular duty. I was working with an officer by the name of Elmer Baggett who had just transferred back into accident and I was giving him a refresher course in the regular duties of accident investigation.

Mr. Ball. Do you work in uniform?

Mr. Hawkins. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. Ball. In the regular patrolman's uniform?

Mr. Hawkins. Yes.

Mr. Ball. Of the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. Hawkins. Yes—the regular patrolman uniform.

Mr. Ball. You drive an automobile?

Mr. Hawkins. Yes; I do.

Mr. Ball. Is it a marked police car?

Mr. Hawkins. Yes—it is the blue and white marked police car.

Mr. Ball. And where were you around 1 o'clock?

Mr. Hawkins. I'm not sure on the time—around it—if it was about the time of the assassination—I was—we were on an accident in the 2500 block of North Industrial, or in that vicinity, the first I had heard anything about this accident.

Mr. Ball. You and your partner?

Mr. Hawkins. Yes.

Mr. Ball. And did you hear the President had been killed?

Mr. Hawkins. Yes, I did.

Mr. Ball. Now, did you later hear that Officer Tippit had been killed?

Mr. Hawkins. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Ball. Did you make a note of the time, or do you have any memory of the approximate time that you heard that report?

Mr. Hawkins. I would say in the vicinity of around 1 p.m.—I'm not sure what time it was, because I didn't make any notes. As I said, we were on an accident at the time—I cleared from the call about the time we heard this information.

Mr. Ball. And you got that information over the police radio?

Mr. Hawkins. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Ball. Tell me, did you receive any instructions as to what to do?

Mr. Hawkins. No, sir; I did not. They called—I heard a citizen come in on the radio and state that an officer had been shot and it looked like he was dead. We had just finished the accident at this time and I was driving an officer, Baggett, and I proceeded to Oak Cliff to the general vicinity of the call after checking out with the dispatcher, stating that we were proceeding in that direction.

We arrived in Oak Cliff and there were several squads in the general vicinity of where the shooting had occurred—different stories had come out that the person was—the suspect had been seen in the immediate vicinity.

Mr. Ball. Did you go to 10th and Patton?

Mr. Hawkins. We drove by 10th and Patton—we didn't stop at the location.

Mr. Ball. Where did you go then?

Mr. Hawkins. We circled the vicinity around Jefferson and Marsalis and in that area, talking to several people on the street, asking if they had seen anyone running up the alley or running down the street, and then they received a call, or I believe Officer Walker put out a call that he had just seen a white man running to the Oak Cliff Library, at which time we proceeded to this location. Officer Hutson had gotten into the car with us when we arrived in Oak Cliff, and there were three of us in the squad car—Officer Baggett, Officer Hutson, and myself.

Mr. Ball. Hutson is also a patrolman?

93 Mr. Hawkins. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. A uniformed patrolman?

Mr. Hawkins. Yes, sir; he is a three-wheel officer. We went to the library and this turned out to be an employee of the library who had heard of the news and was apparently running in the library to tell the other employees there.

We then, after this checked out, we then continued circling in the area around 10th and Patton and Marsalis and Jefferson.

We then heard on the police radio that a suspicious person was at the Texas Theatre, and at this time we proceeded to the theatre.

Mr. Ball. Where did you park?

Mr. Hawkins. I parked my squad car in the alley at the rear of the theatre.

Mr. Ball. Then, what did you do?

Mr. Hawkins. Officer—I believe Officer McDonald was at the back door at the time and Officer Hutson and Captain Westbrook and Officer Walker and myself went in the rear door, all went to the rear door, and at this time we saw a white male there and began talking to him and he identified himself as being the manager of a shoe store next door and that he was the person who had noted the suspicious acting on the suspect, and he at that time was brought into the rear of the theatre and on the stage and he pointed the person out sitting about three or four rows from the back of the theatre on the right hand or the south side.

Mr. Ball. That would be near the right aisle as you face the screen?

Mr. Hawkins. Yes, sir; near the right aisle as you face the screen about four rows from the rear of the theatre.

Mr. Ball. And how many seats over from the right aisle?

Mr. Hawkins. I would say probably three or four—I don't remember exactly.

Mr. Ball. Now, at that time you were standing behind the screen, were you?

Mr. Hawkins. No; we had walked out onto the stage itself and could see the people sitting in the show—the house lights had been turned on—the show was still going on, but we did walk out onto the stage.

Mr. Ball. And did you later learn that the man's name was Brewer?

Mr. Hawkins. The man whom I had been talking to?

Mr. Ball. Yes; the shoe salesman.

Mr. Hawkins. I don't remember what his name is, but I think he did identify himself and we did have his name.

Mr. Ball. Were you armed?

Mr. Hawkins. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. Ball. With what?

Mr. Hawkins. I had my Service .38 revolver.

Mr. Ball. Did you have it out or was it in your holster?

Mr. Hawkins. I believe I had it out.

Mr. Ball. What did you do with it?

Mr. Hawkins. At that time, after he pointed out the person, Officer McDonald had started up the left aisle and he stopped and talked to two boys who were sitting about three rows in front of where Oswald was sitting. I continued up the north aisle or the left aisle as you would walk toward the screen, and then Officer McDonald had walked on back to this person who was seated back there.

Mr. Ball. He was—he walked over to the right aisle, did he?

Mr. Hawkins. He walked from the right aisle and came in from the person's right. I was about three rows from—still in the same aisle, on the left aisle and about three rows from McDonald and Oswald when I heard him say, "I've got him," or "This is it," or some words to that effect.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear Oswald say anything?

Mr. Hawkins. Not at that time; no, sir; I did not.

Mr. Ball. What happened then?

Mr. Hawkins. They had a scuffle and I immediately ran to the location. Officer Hutson had come in the aisle behind Oswald and McDonald and Officer Walker had come in on the left-hand side and I came up in the front. I grabbed his left hand and then immediately took my handcuffs out and put them on his left hand and we brought his right arm around as soon as the gun had been removed and handcuffed his right arm with both hands behind his back.

Mr. Ball. Now, did you see Oswald strike Officer McDonald?

94 Mr. Hawkins. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Ball. With what—with his fist?

Mr. Hawkins. It appeared he struck him with his fist.

Mr. Ball. Which one?

Mr. Hawkins. Right fist.

Mr. Ball. What was Officer McDonald doing at that time?

Mr. Hawkins. I remember seeing him standing beside Oswald, and when I arrived where they were, both of them were down in the seat—Oswald and McDonald had both fallen down into the seat, and very shortly after I got there, a gun was pulled, came out of Oswald's belt and was pulled across to their right, or toward the south aisle of the theatre.

Officer McDonald grabbed the pistol, and the best I can remember, Sergeant Hill, who had gotten there, said, "I've got the gun," and he took the gun and we handcuffed Oswald.

Mr. Ball. Did you hear any snap of the hammer?

Mr. Hawkins. I heard something that I thought was a snap. I didn't know whether it was a snap of a pistol—I later learned that they were sure it was. I didn't know whether it was a snap of the gun or whether it was in the seats someone making the noise.

Mr. Ball. There was some noise you heard?

Mr. Hawkins. Yes, sir; there was.

Mr. Ball. You couldn't identify it?

Mr. Hawkins. No, sir; I don't think so—I don't think I could say for sure.

Mr. Ball. Did you see anybody strike Oswald with his fist?

Mr. Hawkins. No, sir; I didn't see anyone strike him. They had, as I said, they had gotten back into the seat and officer Hutson had grabbed Oswald from behind and Officer Walker had him by the left arm and the gun went across and McDonald had grabbed him by the right hand and Sergeant Hill grabbed the gun and at this time I handcuffed his left hand. There were several officers shortly after that arrived at the scene.

Mr. Ball. Did you see any officer there with a shotgun?

Mr. Hawkins. I don't recall any officers. I know I had seen some officers with a shotgun, but I don't recall whether any officer had one, but it is possible that they did have.

Mr. Ball. The men who were struggling with Oswald were first, McDonald, and you——

Mr. Hawkins. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. And who was the other man?

Mr. Hawkins. Now, Officer Hutson had gotten behind Oswald prior to the time I got there and then also Walker was on the left-hand side—on the left hand.

Mr. Ball. Oswald's left?

Mr. Hawkins. Oswald's left.

Mr. Ball. And who was on the right?

Mr. Hawkins. McDonald.

Mr. Ball. And what about Bob Carroll, did he come in there too?

Mr. Hawkins. Well, I'm sure Bob was in there. I couldn't say where he was exactly or—I do remember Sergeant Hill being there, and I believe he said, "I've got the gun." I think I read an account of where Bob Carroll may have had the gun, but I was under the impression it was Sergeant Hill. I'm sure Bob was there, but I don't know exactly—it was all happening pretty fast.

Mr. Ball. Did any one of these men you have described around Oswald have a shotgun?

Mr. Hawkins. I don't believe any of them—at the time that they were standing directly around Oswald, had a shotgun—I may be mistaken.

Mr. Ball. A witness testified yesterday that while they were struggling with Oswald, a police officer took a gun and took it by the muzzle and struck Oswald in the back with the rifle butt; did you see anything like that?

Mr. Hawkins. No; I did not. I couldn't say that it did not happen. I didn't see from the back, but I do know that Officer Hutson was standing behind him and had grabbed him around the neck and I'm sure that he did not have a gun.

Mr. Ball. Hutson did not have a shotgun?

95 Mr. Hawkins. No, sir; he did not.

Mr. Ball. Did Oswald say anything during this struggle?

Mr. Hawkins. I don't recall anything he said during the struggle—I do recall some remarks that he made about—that he had certain rights and that he would see "about this police brutality" or some remark he made about—that he had rights and he wasn't being handled right or something of this nature.

Mr. Ball. Did you see anybody strike Oswald during the struggle except in the grabbing and holding of him—I know you grabbed him and held him, but did you see anybody strike him a blow?

Mr. Hawkins. No, sir; I did not see anyone strike him a blow.

Mr. Ball. Afterwards, did you notice any marks on Oswald's face?

Mr. Hawkins. I did notice, not at that time, but I did notice, however, after I saw him on television that he had a bruise on the right side of his face.

Mr. Ball. Did you see that bruise there at the theatre?

Mr. Hawkins. Not at the theatre; no, sir.

Mr. Ball. Were you with the group of officers that took him from the theatre?

Mr. Hawkins. I was walking with the group—I was not immediately beside Oswald. At this time, I believe, Officer Walker and possibly Officer Lyons and Paul Bentley and I don't remember, but I believe those three were one of the three and maybe Sergeant Hill. We handcuffed him and after we had handcuffed him we walked him out to the left and immediately to the car in front. They put him in the car—I was standing beside the car and then I worked traffic for them to get out.

Mr. Ball. As he was going out of the theatre, was he shouting or yelling?

Mr. Hawkins. Was he?

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Hawkins. I don't remember him saying anything except this about that he had certain rights and the police brutality.

Mr. Ball. Did he say that as he was leaving the theatre, or did he say that in the theatre?

Mr. Hawkins. It seemed like we were still in the theatre. After we got outside, I couldn't hear him say anything. There was a large crowd out front and they all started yelling when we came out the front door.

Mr. Ball. A witness testified yesterday that as the police brought Oswald from the theatre to the car, that two men were standing beside him, were walking beside him, and that another officer had his arm around his neck and under his chin so as to close his mouth—did you see anything like that?

Mr. Hawkins. I don't remember seeing this. I walked out—the best I can remember—I was behind the group and there were at least three officers, I am sure, directly around him and maybe more, but I was behind him and walked up behind him—I don't recall anyone having him around the neck at that time.

Mr. Ball. Did you do any more work on the investigation of the assassination of the President or the killing of Tippit?

Mr. Hawkins. No, sir; the only thing I did following this—we went to the personnel bureau and made a statement, or wrote a report on the arrest, and that was the last thing I had done.

Mr. Ball. Did you see the pistol at the personnel bureau?

Mr. Hawkins. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. Ball. Did you see McDonald mark it?

Mr. Hawkins. Did I see McDonald mark it?

Mr. Ball. Yes.

Mr. Hawkins. Yes, sir; McDonald, and I believe Sergeant Hill marked it or possibly Bob Carroll. There were, I believe, two people who marked it.

Mr. Ball. Did you see anybody unload the gun?

Mr. Hawkins. No, sir; not unload it. I believe the gun was unloaded whenever I got there, but they put Oswald in the car and three or four men rode with him and then Officer Baggett and I came back to the station and it was probably 30 to 45 minutes after they got there that we arrived at the station.

Mr. Ball. Did you see the bullets?

Mr. Hawkins. I saw the bullets—yes, sir.

96 Mr. Ball. Did you ever examine them closely?

Mr. Hawkins. I looked at them and one of them appeared to have a small indentation where it looked like it might have been struck and did not fire.

Mr. Ball. I think that's all, officer.

Now, this will be written up and you can read it and sign it, or you can waive signature—just as you wish—which do you prefer?

Mr. Hawkins. I would just as soon sign it.

Mr. Ball. All right, we will have you sign it.

Mr. Hawkins. All right.

Mr. Ball. Thank you very much.

Mr. Hawkins. Will you notify me when you want me to sign it?

Mr. Ball. We will give you a telephone call.

Mr. Hawkins. You will give me a telephone call?

Mr. Ball. Yes, sir.

Mr. Hawkins. All right.

Mr. Ball. Thank you very much.

TESTIMONY OF L. D. MONTGOMERY

The testimony of L. D. Montgomery was taken at 4:50 p.m., on April 6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John Hart Ely, and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.

Mr. Ball. Will you stand up and be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. Montgomery. I do.

Mr. Ball. Be seated and state your name, please.

Mr. Montgomery. L. D. Montgomery.

Mr. Ball. And what is your occupation?

Mr. Montgomery. Police officer.

Mr. Ball. You are called before the Commission to give such information as you have as to the assassination of President Kennedy, and you have been advised by your superiors, have you, that we have requested your presence here?

Mr. Montgomery. I have been over here twice now already.

Mr. Ball. You have been here before?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes; I gave one deposition on this.

Mr. Ball. And that had to do with what subject?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, they covered about all of it, really.

Mr. Ball. Have you already testified as to the search of this Texas State Book Depository?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, sir; some of that was in there—yes, sir. Mr. Griffin took it.

Mr. Ball. Did he ask you about the time you went down to the sixth floor of the Texas State Book Depository?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes; I discussed all that, but I don't believe it's in that deposition; now, I don't believe it was in the typed deposition.

Mr. Ball. I had better ask you the questions now.

How long have you been on the police force?

Mr. Montgomery. I have been on down there 9 years.

Mr. Ball. What is your job?

Mr. Montgomery. Detective in the homicide bureau.

Mr. Ball. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes, sir.

Mr. Ball. What time did you go to work that day?

97 Mr. Montgomery. Let me see, that morning I was working 8 to 4.

Mr. Ball. And to what work were you assigned?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, that particular morning at that time we was trying to round up some hijackers.

Mr. Ball. Were you sent down to the Texas State Book Depository?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. Ball. What time did you get there?

Mr. Montgomery. I got there, I guess—it was about 12:40 or 12:45.

Mr. Ball. And what did you do when you got there?

Mr. Montgomery. I reported to the sixth floor there.

Mr. Ball. Did you take part in the search of the sixth floor?

Mr. Montgomery. Well, first I reported to Captain Fritz, my partner and I, and he assigned us to this position over there where the boxes were.

Mr. Ball. Where was that?

Mr. Montgomery. It would be what—the southeast corner of the building—over there from where the shooting took place.

Mr. Ball. Well, was that before the cartridges had been found or afterwards?

Mr. Montgomery. No, sir; they had been found when we got there.

Mr. Ball. When you got there they had been found already?

Mr. Montgomery. Yes, sir.