INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

HEARINGS
Before the President's Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy

Pursuant To Executive Order 11130, an Executive order creating a Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and S.J. Res. 137, 88th Congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas

Volume
III

UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON, D.C.

U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964

For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402

iii

PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY

Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman

Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found in the Commission's Report.

v

Preface

The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume III: Ruth Hyde Paine, an acquaintance of Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife; Howard Leslie Brennan, who was present at the assassination scene; Bonnie Ray Williams, Harold Norman, James Jarman, Jr., and Roy Sansom Truly, Texas School Book Depository employees; Marrion L. Baker, a Dallas motorcycle officer who was present at the assassination scene; Mrs. Robert A. Reid, who was in the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination; Luke Mooney and Eugene Boone, Dallas law enforcement officers who took part in the investigative effort in the Texas School Book Depository Building immediately following the assassination; Patrolman M. N. McDonald, who apprehended Lee Harvey Oswald in the Texas Theatre; Helen Markham, William W. Scoggins, Barbara Jeanette Davis, and Ted Callaway, who were in the vicinity of the Tippit crime scene; Drs. Charles James Carrico and Malcolm Perry, who attended President Kennedy at Parkland Hospital; Robert A. Frazier, a firearms identification expert with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; Ronald Simmons, an expert in weapons evaluation with the U.S. Army Weapons Systems Division; Cortlandt Cunningham, a firearms identification expert with the Federal Bureau of Investigation; and Joseph D. Nicol, a firearms identification expert with the Bureau of Criminal Identification and Investigation of the Illinois Department of Public Safety.

vii

Contents

COMMISSION EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

1

Hearings Before the President's Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy

Thursday, March 19, 1964—Afternoon Session
TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2:05 p.m.

Mr. Jenner. May we proceed, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. McCloy. Yes; we are all ready whenever you are. You are still under affirmation.

Mr. Jenner. I was at the point of describing the driver's license application, but before I do that, Mrs. Paine, may I hand you the document again?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. It has been marked Commission Exhibit 426. You were making a comparison with the block printing on that document with like block printing that you testified yesterday had been written in your address book. I have forgotten the exhibit number, but in your address book which you have before you——

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And the printing in your address book to which you were addressing yourself was what?

Mrs. Paine. His printing of the place where he worked in April of 1963.

Mr. Jenner. And that is Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. You were comparing that printing which you saw him put in your address book with what?

Mrs. Paine. The printing on this application for Texas driver's license.

Mr. Jenner. And any particular printing on that application?

Mrs. Paine. Was put in in pen. I do observe that the printing here uses a mixture of upper case and lower case letters, as does the printing in my phone book, most of it being block upper case.

Mr. Jenner. The form and shape of the printing in both of the documents is——

Mrs. Paine. Is similar.

Mr. Jenner. Similar. All right, thank you.

Mr. Chairman, because of the point raised by Representative Ford with particular reference to the word "photographer" which, by the way, is misspelled, it is spelled "f-o-t-o-g-r-a-p-e-r," and things of that sort do occur as you have already noted in many of his writings, very bad misspellings.

Mr. McCloy. Yes, his grammar seems to be better than this spelling.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. This form is an official form printed of the Texas State License Bureau entitled "Application for Texas driver's license," on the line provided for "name" there appears over "first name", "Lee"; over "middle name", "Harvey"; and "last name", "Oswald."

The second set of spaces, provisions for address, birth, and occupation. He gives as his address, 2545 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex. Was that the address of their home when you first became acquainted with them?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Is the address 2545 Irving Street familiar to you?

Mrs. Paine. I think it is 2515.

2 Mr. Jenner. Perhaps we will have to have it interpreted by someone else. It looks like a "4" to me, but it may be a "1." This birthday, October 18, 1939. The age last birthday 24, and then under "occupation" appears the word I have already related. Sex, male; color of eyes, gray; weight, 146 pounds; race the letter "C"; color of hair, brown; height, 5 foot 9 inches.

Mr. McCloy. Were you about to comment?

Mrs. Paine. I was interested in his comment on his race.

Mr. Jenner. I assume C means Caucasian. There are a series of questions, printed questions on the form, and he answered them, they are from 1 to 12, as follows:

"Question No. 1" he answers in the negative, "Have you ever held a Texas license?"

Question No. 2. All these are in the negative.

"Have you ever been examined for a Texas license?

"Have you ever held a license in any other State?

"Have you ever been denied a license?

"Has your license and driving privilege ever been suspended, revoked, or canceled?

"Have you ever been convicted of driving while intoxicated, failure to stop and render aid, aggravated assault with a motor vehicle, negligent homicide with a motor vehicle or murder with a motor vehicle?"

All answered in the negative.

"Have you ever been convicted of any other moving traffic violation?

"Have you ever been involved as a driver in a motor vehicle accident?

"Have you ever been subject to losses of consciousness or muscular control?

"Have you ever been addicted to the use of intoxicating liquor or narcotic drugs?

"Do you have any physical or mental defects?"

And, lastly: "Have you ever been a patient in a hospital for mental illness?"

The side as to the driving record, that is the reverse side, nothing appears thereon, and nothing in any portion of the form which deals with the record of his examination.

I am a little at a loss, Mr. Chairman, as to whether I should offer this in evidence at the present moment, because it is a document found among his effects in his room, and my statement of fact would be pure hearsay.

Mr. McCloy. How did we get in possession of it?

Mr. Jenner. It was supplied to us by the FBI.

The document was turned over to the FBI. May I withhold offering the document in evidence? We may have another witness who will be able to qualify it.

Mr. McCloy. Who can identify it?

Mr. Jenner. I am sure we will have a witness. We do want the document in evidence. [Commission Exhibit No. 426 is also Commission Exhibit No. 112, vol. I, p. 113.]

Identifying as Commission Exhibit 427 a form of employee identification questionnaire of the Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall Co. Please examine Exhibit 427. I direct your attention to the signature in the lower left-hand corner. Are you familiar with that signature?

Mrs. Paine. I can't say I am familiar with it.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever have any discussion with Lee Oswald relating to his obtaining of a position with Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And when did that discussion occur?

Mrs. Paine. In New Orleans on the second trip, the end of September, when we talked about the possibility of Marina's coming back to have the baby in Texas where they could qualify as one year residents, he equipped me to show that he had been in Texas, and in Dallas for a year by giving me a receipt or part of a paycheck, I don't know just what it was, with the Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall name on it, in October.

Mr. Jenner. What was the purpose——

Mrs. Paine. He was supplying me with documents that would admit her to Parkland Hospital as a patient. He gave me his——

Mr. Jenner. To show the necessary——

3 Mrs. Paine. That he had worked with Stovall.

Mr. Jenner. And the necessary residential period of time in Texas?

Mrs. Paine. And the necessary residence.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Did you take that document with you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. And what did you do with it?

Mrs. Paine. Took it to Parkland Hospital. And subsequently returned it to him.

Mr. Jenner. For what purpose had you gone to Parkland Hospital?

Mrs. Paine. For prenatal care and care at the time of the birth of Marina Oswald's second child.

Mr. Jenner. And is Parkland Hospital a public institution in Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. With the necessary residential period of time, Marina, if she had qualified in that respect, or did qualify then she could receive treatment with respect to the birth of her child either at no cost to her or at reduced cost, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. I understood it to be cost fitted to their ability to pay.

Mr. Jenner. And so you did, yourself, affirmatively arrange that?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. What arrangement?

Mr. Jenner. Affirmatively. You did it yourself?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. We have now reached the summer period of 1963, and covered some of it in part. My recollection of your testimony is that you vacationed in the summer of 1963.

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. You visited various members of your family up north?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You departed Irving, Tex., some time in July, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. I believe it was the 27th of July.

Mr. Jenner. And just tell us whom of your family you visited and where you visited, without telling us what you did.

Mrs. Paine. I visited my mother-in-law and stepfather-in-law.

Mr. Jenner. That is Mr. and Mrs. Young, Arthur Young?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. In Paoli, Pa.?

Mrs. Paine. I first went to Naushon Island off the coast of Massachusetts.

Mr. Jenner. Were you driving in the station wagon?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I was.

Mr. Jenner. With your children?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you went from there to where? Whom did you visit next?

Mrs. Paine. How detailed do you want to be?

Mr. Jenner. Just tell us whom you visited is all.

Mrs. Paine. I stopped and saw Miss Mary Forman, in Connecticut, one night.

Mr. Jenner. She is an old friend of yours?

Mrs. Paine. She is an old friend of mine from Columbus, Ohio, and went on then to Paoli the next day, and stayed there, again with the Youngs, until the early part of September.

Mr. McCloy. Is that Paoli, Pa.?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Did you visit your mother and your father or either of them?

Mrs. Paine. My father came to Paoli and visited me there.

Mr. Jenner. Did I ask you yesterday, Mrs. Paine, and please forgive me if this is a repetition, the occupation of your father.

Mrs. Paine. He is an insurance underwriter; he composes the fine print.

Mr. Jenner. Was he at one time an actuary?

Mrs. Paine. What does actuary mean?

Mr. Jenner. A man who computes the probabilities and works in connection with——

Mrs. Paine. He may be. I am not certain exactly what his position is.

4 Mr. Jenner. For what company, please?

Mrs. Paine. The Nationwide Insurance Company.

Mr. Jenner. Where is their main office?

Mrs. Paine. In Columbus, Ohio.

Mr. Jenner. Your father visited you at Paoli. Did you see your mother during that summer period?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did. I saw her briefly on the way to Naushon Island, and then again I saw her on my way back to the south and west, in Columbus, Ohio.

Mr. Jenner. At Columbus, she was living there then?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see your sister on that trip?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. And where did you see her?

Mrs. Paine. She lives in suburban Washington, and I saw here there at her home. I also saw Michael's brother, and his wife, who live in Baltimore.

Mr. Jenner. Would you identify Michael's brother, please?

Mrs. Paine. His name is Cameron Paine, C-a-m-e-r-o-n.

Mr. Jenner. What is his occupation or business?

Mrs. Paine. He works with Social Security.

Mr. Jenner. For the State or the United States Government?

Mrs. Paine. For the United States Government.

Mr. Jenner. That covers generally the people you visited that summer?

Mrs. Paine. No. I also visited my brother, in Yellow Springs, Ohio.

Mr. Jenner. That is your brother, the physician?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. I visited with friends in the Philadelphia area, while I was at Paoli.

Mr. Jenner. Do you mean by the term "friends" there to mean in the sense I would mean friends?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Or members of the Friends Society?

Mrs. Paine. Some were both, but I meant it as personal friends. And then I saw also friends, also both, capital F and small, in Richmond, Ind., and then from there I headed directly south to New Orleans.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mrs. Paine. Shall I go on to arrival at New Orleans?

Mr. Jenner. This spanned a period of a little over 2 months, did it not?

Mrs. Paine. It was just short of 2 months total that I was away from my home in Irving.

Mr. Jenner. And in the meantime you had had the correspondence with Marina that you had related this morning, during the course of your going along, had you?

Mrs. Paine. During that vacation she and I exchanged one letter each.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. Had you advised her that you were coming to New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. For what purpose?

Mrs. Paine. To visit. And to talk.

Mr. Jenner. About what?

Mrs. Paine. To see if it was appropriate for her to come to my house for the birth of the baby.

Mr. Jenner. At that moment, at that time, when you were about to return or about to go to New Orleans, this concept was limited to her coming to be with you for the birth of the child?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. At least temporarily she abandoned the notion of joining you on a semipermanent basis?

Mrs. Paine. It was abandoned. It was not taken up again.

Mr. Jenner. You arrived in New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. The 20th of September.

Mr. McCloy. Maybe you are going to get to this. Maybe I am anticipating5 your case, so to speak, but during these visits that you paid to your friends on this trip, did you talk about your association with Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. McCloy. You did?

Mrs. Paine. Quite a lot. It was rather an important thing to me.

Mr. Jenner. I have some questions to put to Mrs. Paine on that subject, but they are in the area of the collateral that I spoke of this morning, so I did not go into them at the moment.

Now, starting with your arrival in New Orleans, you got there in the morning or afternoon?

Mrs. Paine. I arrived midafternoon, as I remember.

Mr. Jenner. And you went directly to their home, did you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What did you find when you reached the home?

Mrs. Paine. I was expected. They had groceries bought.

Mr. Jenner. Who was home?

Mrs. Paine. Marina and Lee, and the baby June.

Mr. Jenner. I don't have a calendar before me. The 20th of September is what day of the week?

Mrs. Paine. Is a Friday.

Mr. Jenner. 1963?

Mrs. Paine. I spent the night there that night and the succeeding 2 nights. Lee who bought the groceries while I was there, was host. At one point Mrs. Ruth Kloepfer, who has been previously mentioned, came and visited with her sister—excuse me, with her two daughters. This was after I had made a telephone call to her.

Mr. Jenner. These daughters were adults or were they children?

Mrs. Paine. The daughters were grown daughters.

Mr. Jenner. Grown?

Mrs. Paine. In college, college-age daughters, and one had been studying Russian, didn't know very much. I was impressed with the role that Lee took of the general host, talking with them, looking over some slides that one of the daughters had brought of her trip, recent trip to Russia, showing sights that they recognized, I guess, in Moscow.

Mr. Jenner. That the girls recognized?

Mrs. Paine. No; that Lee and Marina recognized of Moscow, or Lee did, at least. And he was very outgoing and warm and friendly. He seemed in good spirits that weekend. I found him—he made a much better impression on me, I will say, that weekend than the last weekend I had seen him, which was in May.

I could see, and it was the first time that I felt that he was concerned about his wife's physical welfare and about where she could go to have the baby, and he seemed distinctly relieved to consider the possibility of her going to Dallas County and getting care through Parkland Hospital, and clearly pleased that I wanted to offer this, and pleased to have her go, which relieved my mind a good deal.

I hadn't wanted to have such an arrangement come about without his being interested in having it that way.

Mr. Jenner. During the course of this, did you say you were there 3 days?

Mrs. Paine. Three nights, two days.

Mr. Jenner. Two days and three nights; there was then a discussion between yourself and Marina, yourself on the one hand, Marina and Lee on the other, in which it was determined that Marina would return with you to Irving, Tex., for the purpose of having the birth of her child in Irving?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And Lee did participate in those discussions?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, during the course of the time you were there, was there any discussion of the fact that Lee was at that time jobless and would be seeking a position?

Mrs. Paine. I knew from Marina's letters that he was out of work.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

6 Mrs. Paine. We did have one short conversation and this was in English. I began it. He was willing to proceed in English.

Mr. Jenner. This is one of the few occasions in which he permitted himself to speak with you in English?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct. I asked him if he thought his application was any impediment to his getting and keeping a job. He said he didn't know, and went on to say that he had already lost his job when he was arrested for passing out pro-Cuba literature here in New Orleans. And he said he spent the night in jail, and I said, "Did Marina know that?"

"Yes, she knew it."

Mr. Jenner. I want you to finish the conversation.

Mrs. Paine. This was as much of a revelation, accurate revelation of what he had done as I ever got from him.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. I am going to get into that with you.

I would like to have you finish the conversation first before you give your reaction.

Mrs. Paine. That was the end of it.

Mr. Jenner. That was the end?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, with respect to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee activity, had you up to this moment heard of Lee Harvey Oswald's activities, if any, of any character and to any extent, with respect to the Fair Play for Cuba Committee?

Mrs. Paine. I had not heard of any such activities.

The name of the committee was not mentioned. I did not know the name of the committee until it appeared in the newspapers after the assassination.

Mr. Jenner. Now, how did Lee Harvey Oswald describe that? What did he say?

Mrs. Paine. He said that he was passing out pro-Castro or pro-Cuba literature, and that there were some anti-Castro people who also caused some disturbance, and that he had spent the night in jail.

Mr. Jenner. And did I understand you correctly to say that he assigned that as a possible——

Mrs. Paine. No, on the contrary.

Mr. Jenner. As possibly having had some effect on his loss of position?

Mrs. Paine. On the contrary, he made the point that he had already lost his job before this happened.

Mr. Jenner. That he had lost his position before the Fair Play for Cuba incident?

Mrs. Paine. So that he did not know, he could not cite an instance where his application had made it difficult for him in his work.

Mr. Jenner. Had you had conversation with Marina prior to this time in which she might have suggested or did suggest that his application and his history of having gone to Russia and then returned to the United States as having an adverse effect on his efforts to obtain employment?

Mrs. Paine. No; nothing of that nature was said.

Mr. Jenner. That was never discussed in your presence?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Was it ever discussed in your presence or raised in your presence by anybody other than Lee Harvey Oswald or Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Not to my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Was it ever discussed with you by anybody even though they weren't present? By "they" I mean Lee and Marina. You recall none? This is the first instance of any discussion of that character, and you raised it, did you?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And you have exhausted your recollection of this particular conversation, have you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I gather from your testimony that you found the relations between Marina and Lee improved on this occasion?

Mrs. Paine. They certainly appeared to be improved. The weekend time7 was certainly much more comfortable than the weekend in early May had been when I first was in New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. You described yesterday an irritability as between Marina and Lee when you were there in the spring?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And that that had continued during all the time you were in New Orleans. You found the situation different?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. On your return in the fall?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you have already related the incident about touring Bourbon Street, and that occurred on this occasion, did it?

Mrs. Paine. During that weekend, yes; those days.

Mr. Jenner. And Lee Harvey Oswald stayed home that evening or that day. It was late in the day, was it, rather than the evening?

Mrs. Paine. It was early evening.

Mr. Jenner. Early evening. What did he do at home, do you know?

Mrs. Paine. When we got back Marina noticed that the dishes had been cleaned up and put away. I take it back, they had been washed, not put away. And I believe he did some packing.

Mr. Jenner. In anticipation of your returning to Irving, Tex., with Marina?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

I was impressed during these 2 days with his willingness to help with the packing. He did virtually all the packing and all the loading of the things into the car. I simply thought that gentlemanly of him at the time. I have wondered since whether he wasn't doing it by preference to having me handle it.

Mr. Jenner. I was about to ask you your impression in that direction. Did he seem eager to do the packing?

Mrs. Paine. He did, distinctly.

Mr. Jenner. Distinctly eager?

Mrs. Paine. I recall he began as early, you see, as Saturday night and we left Tuesday morning.

Mr. Jenner. And you are aware of the fact he did some packing while you and Marina were on tour?

Mrs. Paine. It couldn't have been Saturday night, because I only arrived on Saturday. More likely it was Sunday. Is Bourbon Street open on Sunday?

Mr. Jenner. Bourbon Street is open all the time.

Mrs. Paine. Then it would have to be——

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Jenner. Did you have the feeling at the time that he was quite eager to do the packing?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And did you have the feeling it was just a touch out of the ordinary?

Mrs. Paine. It didn't occur to me that it was.

Mr. Jenner. But on reflection now, you think it was out of the ordinary?

Mrs. Paine. On reflection now I think it wasn't simply a gesture of the gentleman.

Mr. Jenner. But at the time it didn't arouse enough interest on your part to have a question in your mind?

Mrs. Paine. No; I would have expected it of other men, but this was the first I saw him taking that much interest.

Mr. Jenner. It did arrest your attention on that score, in any event?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you were there for 2 full days and 3 evenings. Would you tell us, conserving your description in your words, what did you do during these 2 days and 3 nights. When I say "you", I am including all three of you.

Mrs. Paine. Of course, afternoons we usually spent in rest for the children, having all small children, all of us having small children.

8 Mr. Jenner. Whenever this doesn't include Lee Harvey Oswald would you be good enough to tell us?

Mrs. Paine. When he was not present?

Mr. Jenner. That is right.

Mrs. Paine. My recollection is that he was present most of the weekend. He went out to buy groceries, came in with a cheery call to his two girls, saying, "Yabutchski," which means girls, the Russian word for girls, as he came in the door. It was more like Harvey than I had seen him before. He remembered this time. I saw him reading a pocketbook.

Mr. Jenner. The Commission is interested in his readings. To the best of your ability to recall, tell us. You noticed it now, of course.

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I don't recall the title of it. I do recall that I loaned him a pocketbook at one point. I can't even recall what it was about. But I might if I saw it.

Mr. Jenner. Was it a book on any political subject?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Representative Ford. Was it an English book?

Mrs. Paine. But it was in English, unless it was a parallel text of Russian-English short stories, something like that, I can't remember. It might have been Reid's Ten Days That Shook the World, or something like that, but I am not at all certain. I would have thought he would have read that, anyway.

Representative Ford. Was it a book that you recall having had with you that summer? Ten Days——

Mrs. Paine. It is a book I should still own, and I don't recall for sure whether I have that one.

Representative Ford. Ten Days That Shook the World?

Mrs. Paine. I am very shaky in my memory. I had prepared a collection of books for the course in Russian at Saint Marks School, and they included history and literature and English.

Representative Ford. But you were still anticipating teaching Russian at Saint Marks School in Irving?

Mrs. Paine. That is right, and this was just part of a bibliography of things of interest that included some of the more historical texts from many points of view regarding Soviet life.

Representative Ford. I interrupted you.

Mr. Jenner. I was asking you to tell us in general what was done during those 2 days and 3 nights.

Mrs. Paine. We went out to wash diapers at the local washiteria, and stayed while they were done and went back.

Mr. Jenner. You and Lee?

Mrs. Paine. I don't think that he went. My recollection is that Marina and I went.

Mr. Jenner. He remained home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you visit with any of their in-laws?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did they visit while you were there?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did they come there?

Mrs. Paine. No. I have already referred to a visit from Mrs. Kloepfer, with her two girls which must have been the day before we left or Monday.

No, Sunday, it must have been Sunday. It wasn't much time altogether, because Sunday was the day before we left.

Mr. Jenner. Is Mrs. Kloepfer a native American?

Mrs. Paine. I have no idea. She speaks natively.

Mr. Jenner. But she does have a command of the Russian language?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, no, no. Her daughter has had 1 year of Russian in college, and was much too shy to begin to say anything, thoroughly overwhelmed by meeting someone who really spoke.

Mr. Jenner. I must have misinterpreted your testimony this morning.

Mrs. Paine. Her daughter had visited in the Soviet Union just recently and had slides that she had taken that summer.

9 Mr. Jenner. But Mrs. Kloepfer, as far as you are informed, had no command of the Russian language?

Mrs. Paine. Absolutely none. She was the only person I knew to try to contact to ask if she knew or could find anyone in New Orleans who knew Russian, and she said she didn't know anyone, over the phone.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mrs. Paine. And I, therefore, also tried to get Mrs. Blanchard to seek out someone who could talk to Marina.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Blanchard had no command of the Russian language, as far as you knew?

Mrs. Paine. I would be certain she didn't.

Mr. Jenner. Have you described for us generally the course of events in the 2 days and 3 nights you were there?

Mrs. Paine. Well, much of the last portion, some of the last portion of Sunday was spent packing up. It was a very well loaded automobile by then, because I already had a great many of my own, including a boat on the top of the car to which we attached the playpen, stroller, and other things on top. I should describe in detail the packing, which was another thing that made me feel that he did care for his wife.

We left on Monday morning, yes, Monday morning early, the 23d, and it seemed to me he was very sorry to see her go. They kissed goodbye and we got in the car and I started down intending really to go no farther than the first gas station because I had a soft rear tire and I wasn't going to have a flat with this great pile of goods on top of not only my car but my spare, so I went down to the first gas station that was open a couple blocks down, and prepared to buy a tire.

Lee having watched us, walked down to the gas station and talked and visited while I arranged to have the tire changed, bought a new one and had it changed. I felt he wished or thought he should be offering something toward the cost of the tire. He said, "That sure is going to cost a lot, isn't it?" And I said, "Yes; but car owners have to expect that." This is as close as he came to offering financial help. But it was at least a gesture.

Mr. Jenner. Then there was no financial help given you?

Mrs. Paine. There was no financial help.

Mr. Jenner. Given you by Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. In connection with the return of Marina to Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. Paine. And he did not at this time give her, so far as I know, any small change or petty cash to take with her, whereas when he left her in late April to go to my house, she to go to my house, and he to go to New Orleans, he left $10 or so with her. She spent that on incidentals.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, did he ever, during all of the period of your acquaintance with the Oswalds, ever offer any reimbursement financially or anything at all to you?

Mrs. Paine. No; he never offered anything to me.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion between you and him on the subject?

Mrs. Paine. No. As close as we came to such discussion was saying that when they had enough money and perhaps after Christmas they would get an apartment again, and I judged, felt that he was saving money towards renting a furnished apartment for his family.

Mr. Jenner. Now, I used the term "offer." Did he ever offer? Did he in fact ever give you any money?

Mrs. Paine. He in fact never gave me any money, either. He did give Marina.

Mr. Jenner. The one incident of which you are speaking or on other occasions?

Mrs. Paine. There was that one incident in April.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. He did give her, I think, $10, just prior, or some time close to the time of the assassination, because she planned to buy some shoes.

Mr. Jenner. Shoes for herself, or her children?

Mrs. Paine. For herself, flats. But when he gave that to her I am not certain. I do know that we definitely planned to go out on Friday afternoon, the 22d of November, to buy those shoes. We did not go.

10 Mr. Jenner. That is you girls planned to do that?

Mrs. Paine. She and I did; yes.

Representative Ford. Mr. Jenner, do you plan to ask questions about the process of packing of the car?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I do. Now, this improvement in the attitude of Lee Harvey Oswald, arrested your deliberate attention—didn't it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it did. It was really the first I had felt any sympathy for him at all.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any feeling that he, in turn, felt that he might not be seeing Marina any more?

Mrs. Paine. I had no feeling of that whatever.

Mr. Jenner. None whatsoever.

Mrs. Paine. He told me that he was going to try to look for work in Houston, and possibly in Philadelphia; these were the two names he mentioned.

Mr. Jenner. We are interested in that, in this particular phase of the investigation. Did he make that statement in your presence, in the presence of Marina?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. I take it that this was elicited by a discussion of the subject of his going to look for work after you girls had left, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. About what he would do after we left?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, would you repeat just what he said on that subject?

Mrs. Paine. He told me that he was going to go to Houston to look for work, or possibly to Philadelphia.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about having any acquaintances or friends in either of those towns?

Mrs. Paine. He did. You recalled to my mind he said he had a friend in Houston.

Mr. Jenner. Did he mention other towns he might undertake to visit?

Mrs. Paine. No; he didn't. Or any other friends.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any inference or did you infer from anything he said or which might have been said in your presence that after you girls left he intended to leave New Orleans? To look——

Mrs. Paine. He was definitely planning to leave New Orleans after we left.

Mr. Jenner. Promptly?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You had that definite impression?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And he put it in terms of leaving New Orleans to go to Houston, or what was the other town?

Mrs. Paine. Possibly Philadelphia.

Mr. Jenner. Possibly Philadelphia. Now, during all that weekend, was there any discussion of anybody going to Mexico?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Was the subject of Mexico discussed at any time and in any respect?

Mrs. Paine. Not at any time nor any respect.

Mr. Jenner. On the trip back to Irving, Tex., did Marina say anything on the subject of Mexico?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you girls discuss what Lee was going to do during this interim period?

Mrs. Paine. Only to the extent that he was looking for a job, but I think that discussion, my memory of it comes from a discussion with Lee rather than a discussion with her. I may say that we never talked about any particular time, he would see Marina again.

Mr. Jenner. You did not?

Mrs. Paine. He kissed her a very fond goodbye, both at home and then again at the gas station, and I felt he cared and he would certainly see her. And this I recalled the other night. It should be put in here. As he was giving me this material, I have already mentioned, that indicated his claim to 1 year residence11 in Texas, I can't remember just what I said that elicited it from him, but some reference to, shall I say that you have gone, or how can I—what shall I say about the husband, where is the husband?

Mr. Jenner. Do the best in your own words.

Mrs. Paine. Shall I say that you have gone away or away looking for work or something? What shall I say about you?

Mr. Jenner. This is Marina?

Mrs. Paine. This is in English now, this one English conversation.

Mr. Jenner. By you?

Mrs. Paine. Apropos of being prepared to admit her to Parkland. I asked, what shall I say about him, that he is gone or what?

He said, "Oh, no, that might appear that I had abandoned her."

And I was glad to hear him say that he didn't at all want it to appear or to feel of himself that he had abandoned her.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything as to what representations you might make to Parkland Hospital and other State authorities in that respect?

Mrs. Paine. No; I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. On the trip back to—may I defer the packing until Representative Ford returns—on the trip back to Irving, Tex., did you and Marina discuss the subject matter of Dee's going to Houston, Tex., or to Philadelphia to look for a job?

Mrs. Paine. No; we didn't.

Mr. Jenner. At any time during the weekend you were in New Orleans or driving from New Orleans to Irving, Tex., was the friend identified, the supposed friend?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. In Houston, identified?

Mrs. Paine. No; I remember wondering if there was one.

Mr. Jenner. You wondered at the time?

Mrs. Paine. I wondered to myself if there was one.

Mr. Jenner. What made you wonder?

Mrs. Paine. I may say, also, I wondered, as I have already indicated for the Commission, I had wondered, from time to time, whether this was a man who was working as a spy or in any way a threat to the Nation, and I thought, "This is the first I have heard anything about a contact. I am interested to know if this is a real thing or something unreal." And waited to see really whether I would learn any more about it. But this thought crossed my mind.

Mr. Jenner. It did? Now, many of my questions are directed towards trying to find out what this man did with his time. When he went job hunting, according to some of the records here, he appeared to return home rather promptly. That is, he would leave in the morning but he would be home before noontime.

Mrs. Paine. Oh?

Mr. Jenner. Did you notice anything of that nature?

Mrs. Paine. I never saw him when he was job hunting. The times in New Orleans, of course, I wasn't there. The times in April he was job hunting from a base of 214 Neely Street, and in October he was operating from the base of the room on Beckley Street. So I never saw him.

Mr. Jenner. So that as far as—this I would like to bring out, Mr. Chairman—as far as your contact with Lee Harvey Oswald as such, Mrs. Paine, your opportunities for knowing what he did with his time were limited, were they not?

Mrs. Paine. They were limited.

Mr. Jenner. That is in the spring, there was this New Orleans period when he was absent in New Orleans altogether during the 2 weeks that Marina was with you?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. It is the period preceding the trip to New Orleans that they lived a little distance from you, and that was in a period of your really becoming more acquainted with them. Were you aware of what Mr. Oswald was doing during the daytime, or evening along in that period of time?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. In the fall when you saw him then for 2 days and 3 nights in12 the early fall of 1963, he was out of work. He was at the home substantially all of that time?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You returned to Irving, then, and you didn't see him until he appeared as you testified this morning, on October 4, 1963?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Now, he was in your home from October 4, 1963, until what was it—the 15th of October? Is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. He was not?

Mrs. Paine. Not at all. He was in the home for the weekend of October 4. I then took him to the bus around noon on the 7th, that is a Monday, to the Intercity Bus between Irving and Dallas. You can't walk to it from my house. There is no way to get anywhere from my house unless you use a car.

Mr. Jenner. We are interested in that, also, Mrs. Paine, about his ability to get to your home from whatever means of public transportation there was. Would you be good enough to describe the problems in that connection?

Mrs. Paine. He called on the afternoon of the 4th.

Mr. Jenner. Would you give us the problems first, the physical problems? Where was the bus located? What was the bus terminal? How far was it from your home?

Mrs. Paine. The bus terminal in Irving where you could get a bus going to Dallas was several miles away, 2 to 3 miles away from my home, a 10 minute car ride.

Mr. Jenner. And what means of transportation was there from the bus terminal to your home?

Mrs. Paine. Walking?

Mr. Jenner. Any public transportation.

Mrs. Paine. There was nothing public.

Mr. Jenner. You would have to hitchhike or walk or be driven?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. I take it, then, there were occasions when you would have to go and pick him up at the bus terminal?

Mrs. Paine. I recall at least one such occasion, and that was on the 12th of October, a Saturday, which was the next time he came out.

Mr. Jenner. That was the next time following the October 4 weekend?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. When was the first time that you heard, or had any notice of the fact that this man had been in Mexico, or possibly may have been in Mexico?

Mrs. Paine. They are two different questions. I will answer the first one. I heard that he had been in Mexico after the assassination in one of the papers.

Mr. Jenner. Was that the first time?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; that was the first time. Looking back then, with that knowledge, I could see that I might have guessed this from two other things that had happened.

Mr. Jenner. All right, give us them in sequence, please.

Mrs. Paine. One was, I can describe by an incident that took place at our home, I am not certain which weekend, one of the times that Lee was out. He wanted to drill a hole in a silver coin for Marina so she could wear it around her neck, and presumed to use my husband's drill press, which is one of the many things in the garage, and I complained. But he convinced me that he knew how to operate it and knew just what he was doing.

So I said, all right, and he proceeded to drill a hole in this coin, and then Marina showed it to me later. I didn't look closely at it. It wasn't until—although I could have perfectly well in this situation. I did see that it was a foreign coin.

Mr. Jenner. It was a what?

Mrs. Paine. It was a foreign coin. It was not a coin I recognized. It was about the size of a silver dollar, but not as thick, as I remember it. And it was not then until perhaps a week or something less after the assassination when an FBI agent asked me was there anything left in the house that would be pertinent, and he and I went together and looked in the drawer in the room13 where Marina had been staying, and found there this drilled coin, looked at it closely, and it was a peso, the Republic of Mexico. This is the first I had looked at it closely. Also, with this peso was a Spanish-English Dictionary.

My tendency to be very hesitant to look into other people's things was rather put aside at this point, and I was very curious to see what this book was, and I observed that the price of it, or what I took to be the price was in a corner at the front was not in English money, and at the back in his hand or somebody's hand in small scribble was the notation, "Buy tickets for bull fight, get silver bracelet for Marina" and there in the drawer also was a silver bracelet with the name Marina on it, which I took to be associated with this notation.

Mr. Jenner. Was it inscribed on the bracelet?

Mrs. Paine. It was inscribed, the name Marina. And some picture postcards with no message, just a picture of Mexico City in this dictionary, and these I gave to the——

Mr. Jenner. Had you seen any of these items in your home at anytime prior to this occasion that you have now described?

Mrs. Paine. None of these items except the peso which I had not noticed to be that, seen it, of course.

Mr. Jenner. Now, that is one incident.

Mrs. Paine. That is one incident. Another refers to a rough draft of a letter that Lee wrote and left this rough draft on my secretary desk.

Mr. Jenner. Would you describe the incident? In the meantime, I will obtain the rough draft here among my notes.

Mrs. Paine. All right. This was on the morning of November 9, Saturday. He asked to use my typewriter, and I said he might.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. Would you please state to the Commission why you are reasonably firm that it was the morning of November 9? What arrests your attention to that particular date?

Mrs. Paine. Because I remember the weekend that this note or rough draft remained on my secretary desk. He spent the weekend on it. And the weekend was close and its residence on that desk was stopped also on the evening of Sunday, the 10th, when I moved everything in the living room around; the whole arrangement of the furniture was changed, so that I am very clear in my mind as to what weekend this was.

Mr. Jenner. All right, go ahead.

Mrs. Paine. He was using the typewriter. I came and put June in her high-chair near him at the table where he was typing, and he moved something over what he was typing from, which aroused my curiosity.

Mr. Jenner. Why did that arouse your curiosity?

Mrs. Paine. It appeared he didn't want me to see what he was writing or to whom he was writing. I didn't know why he had covered it. If I had peered around him, I could have looked at the typewriter and the page in it, but I didn't.

Mr. Jenner. It did make you curious?

Mrs. Paine. It did make me curious. Then, later that day, I noticed a scrawling handwriting on a piece of paper on the corner at the top of my secretary desk in the living room. It remained there.

Sunday morning I was the first one up. I took a closer look at this, a folded sheet of paper folded at the middle. The first sentence arrested me because I knew it to be false. And for this reason I then proceeded——

Mr. Jenner. Would you just hold it at that moment. This is for purposes of identification, Mr. Chairman, rather than admission of the document in evidence. I have marked pages 321 and 322 of Commission Document No. 385 generally referred to by the staff as the Gemberling Report. He is an FBI agent. I have now placed that before the witness. You examined that yesterday with me, did you not, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. The document I am now showing you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that a transcript, a literal transcript of the document you saw?

Mrs. Paine. Of course the document was in English, transcribing of what was said; yes.

14 Mr. Jenner. By transcript I meant that it has been retyped, that it is literal.

Mrs. Paine. That is the document; yes.

Mr. Jenner. That is interesting. You noticed that the document was in English.

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. You saw it. And it was folded at what point, now that you have the transcript of it before you?

Mrs. Paine. At the top of what I could see of the paper. In other words, it was just below the fold. It said, "The FBI is not now interested in my activities."

Mr. Jenner. Is that what arrested your attention?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What did you do?

Mrs. Paine. I then proceeded to read the whole note, wondering, knowing this to be false, wondering why he was saying it. I was irritated to have him writing a falsehood on my typewriter, I may say, too. I felt I had some cause to look at it.

Mr. Jenner. May I have your permission, Mr. Chairman. The document is short. It is relevant to the witness' testimony, and might I read it aloud in the record to draw your attention to it?

Mr. McCloy. Without objection.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, would you help me by reading it, since you have it there.

Mrs. Paine. Do you want me to leave out all the crossed out——

Mr. Jenner. No; I wish you would indicate that too.

Mrs. Paine. "Dear Sirs:

"This is to inform you of events since my interview with comrade Kostine in the Embassy of the Soviet Union, Mexico City, Mexico."

(Discussion off the record.)

Mrs. Paine. He typed it early in the morning of that day because after he typed it we went to the place where you get the test for drivers. It was that same day.

Mr. Jenner. It was election day and the driver's license place was closed, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And that was November 9?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now you have reached the point where you are reading the letter on the morning of November 10.

Mrs. Paine. That is right; after I had noticed that it lay on my desk the previous evening.

"I was unable to remain in Mexico City (because I considered useless—)"—because—it is crossed out.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman. In this transcript wherever there are words stricken out, the transcriber has placed those words in parenthesis and transcribed the words, but then has written the words "crossed out" to indicate in the original the words crossed out.

Proceed, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. Paine. "Indefinitely because of my (visa—crossed out) Mexican visa restrictions which was for 15 days only.

"(I had a—crossed out) I could not take a chance on applying for an extension unless I used my real name so I returned to the U.S.

"I and Marina Nicholyeva are now living in Dallas, Texas. (You all ready ha—crossed out).

"The FBI is not now interested in my activities in the progressive organization FPCC of which I was secretary in (New Orleans, La.—crossed out) New Orleans, Louisiana since I (am—crossed out) no longer (connected with—crossed out) live in that state.

"(November the November—crossed out) the FBI has visited us here in Texas on November 1st. Agent of the FBI James P. Hasty warned me that if I attempt to engage in FPCC activities in Texas the FBI will again take an 'interest' in me. The agent also 'suggested' that my wife could 'remain in the U.S. under15 FBI protection', that is, she could (refuse to return to the—crossed out) defect from the Soviet Union. Of course I and my wife strongly protested these tactics by the notorious FBI.

"(It was unfortun that the Soviet Embassy was unable to aid me in Mexico City but—crossed out) I had not planned to contact the Mexico City Embassy at all so of course they were unprepared for me. Had I been able to reach Havana as planned (I could have contacted—crossed out) the Soviet Embassy there (for the completion of would have been able to help me get the necessary documents I required assist me—crossed out) would have had time to assist me, but of course the stuip Cuban consule was at fault here. I am glad he has since been replaced by another."

Mr. Jenner. Now I would like to ask you a few questions about your reaction to that. You had read that in the quiet of your living room on Sunday morning, the 10th of November.

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And there were a number of things in that that you thought were untrue.

Mrs. Paine. Several things I knew to be untrue.

Mr. Jenner. You knew to be untrue. Were there things in there that alarmed you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I would say so.

Mr. Jenner. What were they?

Mrs. Paine. To me this—well, I read it and decided to make a copy.

Mr. Jenner. Would having the document back before you help you?

Mrs. Paine. No, no. I was just trying to think what to say first. And decided that I should have such a copy to give to an FBI agent coming again, or to call. I was undecided what to do. Meantime I made a copy.

Mr. Jenner. But you did have the instinct to report this to the FBI?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you made a copy of the document?

Mrs. Paine. And I made a copy of the document which should be among your papers, because they have that too. And after having made it, while the shower was running, I am not used to subterfuge in any way, but then I put it back where it had been and it lay the rest of Sunday on my desk top, and of course I observed this too.

Mr. Jenner. That is that Lee didn't put it away, just left it out in the room?

Mrs. Paine. That he didn't put it away or didn't seem to care or notice or didn't recall that he had a rough draft lying around. I observed it was untrue that the FBI was no longer interested in him. I observed it was untrue that the FBI came——

Mr. Jenner. Why did you observe that that was untrue?

Mrs. Paine. Well, the FBI came and they asked me, they said——

Mr. Jenner. Had the FBI been making inquiries of you prior to that time?

Mrs. Paine. They had been twice.

Mr. Jenner. November 1 and——

Mrs. Paine. November 1, and they told me the 5. I made no record of it whatever.

Mr. Jenner. But it was a few days later?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; a few days later. And the first visit I understood to be a visit to convey to Marina that if any blackmail pressure was being put upon her, because of relatives back home, that she was invited, if she wished, to talk about this to the FBI. This is a far cry from being told she could defect from the Soviet Union, very strong words, and false both.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever hear anything at all insofar as the FBI is concerned reported to you by Marina or Lee Harvey Oswald during all of your acquaintance with either of them of any suggestion by the FBI or anybody else that Marina defect in that context to the United States?

Mrs. Paine. No, absolutely not.

Mr. Jenner. Or anything of similar import?

Mrs. Paine. Nothing of similar import.

Mr. Jenner. I limited it to the FBI. Any agency of the Government of the United States?

16 Mrs. Paine. Nothing of that sort.

Mr. Jenner. And did you see or observe anything during all of that period of your acquaintance, which stimulated you to think at all or have any notion that any agency of the Government of the United States was seeking to induce her to defect?

Mrs. Paine. To the United States?

Mr. Jenner. To the United States.

Mrs. Paine. No, and her terminology in view of it was so completely different from such stereotyped and loaded words that I was seeing as I read this. What I was most struck with was what kind of man is this.

Mr. Jenner. Is who?

Mrs. Paine. Why is Lee Oswald writing this? What kind of man? Here is a false statement that she was invited to defect, false statement that the FBI is no longer interested, false statement that he was present, "they visited I and my wife."

Mr. Jenner. Was he present?

Mrs. Paine. He was not present. False statement that "I and my wife protested vigorously." Having not been present he could not protest.

Mr. Jenner. He was not present when the FBI interviewed you on November 1. Was Marina present then?

Mrs. Paine. She was present.

Mr. Jenner. And was Marina present when the FBI came later on November 5?

Mrs. Paine. She came into the room just after basically the very short visit was concluded.

Mr. Jenner. The second interview was a rather short one?

Mrs. Paine. The second interview was conducted standing up. He simply asked me did I know the address. My memory had been refreshed by him since.

Mr. Jenner. The first interview, however, was a rather lengthly one?

Mrs. Paine. But it was not strictly speaking an interview.

Mr. Jenner. What was it?

Mrs. Paine. It was, as Mr. Hosty has described to me later, and I think this was my impression too of it at the time, an informal opening for confidence. He presented himself. He talked. We conversed about the weather, about Texas, about the end of the last World War and changes in Germany at the time.

He mentioned that the FBI is very careful in their investigations not to bring anyone they suspect in public light until they have evidence to convict him in a proper court of law, that they did not convict by hearsay or public accusation.

He asked me, and here I am answering why I thought it was false to say the FBI is no longer interested in Lee Oswald; he asked first of all if I knew did Lee live there, and I said "No." Did I know where he lived? No, I didn't, but that it was in Dallas.

Did I know where he worked? Yes, I did.

And I said I thought Lee was very worried about losing this job, and the agent said that well, it wasn't their custom to approach the employer directly. I said that Lee would be there on the weekend, so far as I knew, that he could be seen then, if he was interested in talking to Lee.

I want to return now to the fact that I had seen these gross falsehoods and strong words, concluding with "notorious FBI" in this letter, and gone to say I wondered whether any of it was true, including the reference to going to Mexico, including the reference to using a false name, and I still wonder if that was true or false that he used an assumed name, though I no longer wonder whether he had actually gone.

Mr. Jenner. There was a subsequent incident in which you did learn that he used an assumed name, was there not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, a week later.

Mr. Jenner. We will get to that in a moment. But was this——

Mrs. Paine. But this was the first indication I had that this man was a good deal queerer than I thought, and it didn't tell me, perhaps it should have but it didn't tell me just what sort of a queer he was. He addressed it "Dear Sirs."17 It looked to me like someone trying to make an impression, and choosing the words he thought were best to make that impression, even including assumed name as a possible attempt to make an impression on someone who was able to do espionage, but not to my mind necessarily a picture of someone who was doing espionage, though I left that open as a possibility, and thought I'd give it to the FBI and let them conclude or add it to what they knew.

I regret, and I would like to put this on the record, particularly two things in my own actions prior to the time of the assassination.

One, that I didn't make the connection between this phone number that I had of where he lived and that of course this would produce for the FBI agent who was asking the address of where he lived.

Mr. Jenner. I will get to that, Mrs. Paine.

Mrs. Paine. Well, that is regret 1.

Mr. Jenner. I don't want to cover too many subjects at the moment.

Mrs. Paine. But then of course you see in light of the events that followed it is a pity that I didn't go directly instead of waiting for the next visit, because the next visit was the 23d of November.

Mr. Jenner. Now I am going to get to that. What did you do with your copy of the letter?

Mrs. Paine. I put my copy of the letter away in an envelope in my desk. I then, Sunday evening, also took the original. I decided to do that Sunday evening.

Mr. Jenner. He had left?

Mrs. Paine. No, he had not left.

Mr. Jenner. He had not left?

Mrs. Paine. I asked the gentlemen present, it included Michael, to come in and help me move the furniture around. I walked in and saw the letter was still there and plunked it into my desk. We then moved all the furniture. I then took it out of the desk and placed it.

Mr. Jenner. When did you take it out of the desk?

Mrs. Paine. I don't think he knew that I took it. Oh, that evening or the next morning, I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. And this was the 10th of November?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever have any conversation with him about that?

Mrs. Paine. No. I came close to it. I was disturbed about it. I didn't go to sleep right away. He was sitting up watching the late spy story, if you will, on the TV, and I got up and sat there on the sofa with him saying, "I can't speak," wanting to confront him with this and say, "What is this?" But on the other hand I was somewhat fearful, and I didn't know what to do.

Representative Ford. Fearful in what way?

Mrs. Paine. Well, if he was an agent, I would rather just give it to the FBI, not to say "Look, I am watching you" by saying "What is this I find on my desk."

Mr. Jenner. Were you fearful of any physical harm?

Mrs. Paine. No; I was not.

Representative Ford. That is what I was concerned about.

Mrs. Paine. No; I was not, though I don't think I defined my fears. I sat down and said I couldn't sleep and he said, "I guess you are real upset about going to the lawyer tomorrow."

He knew I had an appointment with my lawyer to discuss the possibility of a divorce the next day, and that didn't happen to be what was keeping me up that night, but I was indeed upset about the idea, and it was thoughtful for him to think of it. But I let it rest there, and we watched the story which he was interested in watching. And then I excused myself and went to bed.

Mr. Jenner. What did you do ultimately with your draft of the letter and the original?

Mrs. Paine. The first appearance of an FBI person on the 23d of November, I gave the original to them. The next day it probably was I said I also had a copy and gave them that. I wanted to be shut of it.

Mr. Jenner. So I take it, Mrs. Paine, you did not deliver either the original18 or the copy or call attention to the original or the copy with respect to the FBI.

Mrs. Paine. Prior.

Mr. Jenner. Prior to the 23d did you say?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And what led you to hold onto this rather provocative document?

Mrs. Paine. It is a rather provocative document. It provoked my doubts about this fellow's normalcy more than it provoked thoughts that this was the talk of an agent reporting in. But I wasn't sure.

I of course made no—I didn't know him to be a violent person, had no thought that he had this trait, possibility in him, absolutely no connection with the President's coming. If I had, hindsight is so much better, I would certainly have called the FBI's attention to it. Supposing that I had?

Mr. Jenner. If the FBI had returned, Mrs. Paine, as you indicated during the course of your meeting with the FBI November 1, would you have disclosed this document to the FBI?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, I certainly think so. This was not something I was at all comfortable in having even.

Mr. Jenner. Were you expecting the FBI to return?

Mrs. Paine. I did expect them to come back. As I say, I had said that Lee was here on weekends and so forth. It might have been a good time to give them this document. But as far as I knew, and I know now certainly, they had not seen him and they were still interested in seeing him.

Representative Ford. How did you copy the note?

Mrs. Paine. Handwritten.

Representative Ford. Handwritten?

Mrs. Paine. I perhaps should put in here that Lee told me, and I only reconstructed this a few weeks ago, that he went, after I gave him—from the first visit of the FBI agent I took down the agent's name and the number that is in the telephone book to call the FBI, and I gave this to Lee the weekend he came.

Mr. Jenner. You gave it to Lee?

Mrs. Paine. I gave it to Lee.

Mr. Jenner. What weekend was that?

Mrs. Paine. I am told that came out on the 1st of November, so that would have been the weekend of the 2d, the next day.

Mr. Jenner. You have your calendar there. The 1st of November is what day of the week?

Mrs. Paine. It is a Friday. Then he told me, it must have been the following weekend, that same weekend of the 9th.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything when you gave him Agent Hosty's name on the telephone?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Nothing at all?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall anything Lee said. I will go on as to the recollections that came later. He told me that he had stopped at the downtown office of the FBI and tried to see the agents and left a note. And my impression of it is that this notice irritated.

Mr. Jenner. Irritating?

Mrs. Paine. Irritated, that he left the note saying what he thought. This is reconstructing my impression of the fellows bothering him and his family, and this is my impression then. I couldn't say this was specifically said to him later.

Mr. Jenner. You mean he was irritated?

Mrs. Paine. He was irritated and he said, "They are trying to inhibit my activities," and I said, "You passed your pamphlets," and could well have gone on to say what I thought, but I don't believe I did go on to say, that he could and should expect the FBI to be interested in him.

He had gone to the Soviet Union, intended to become a citizen there, and come back. He had just better adjust himself to being of interest to them for years to come.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say to that?

19 Mrs. Paine. Now as I say, this I didn't go on to say. This was my feeling.

I didn't actually go on to say this. I did say, "Don't be inhibited, do what you think you should." But I was thinking in terms of passing pamphlets or expressing a belief in Fidel Castro, if that is why he had, I defend his right to express such a belief. I felt the FBI would too and that he had no reason to be irritated. But then that was my interpretation.

Mr. Jenner. Have you given all of what he said and what you said, however, on that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I will just go on to say that I learned only a few weeks ago that he never did go into the FBI office. Of course knowing, thinking that he had gone in, I thought that was sensible on his part. But it appears to have been another lie.

Mr. Jenner. I will return to that FBI visit in a moment. I want to cover that as a separate subject.

Representative Ford is interested in another subject. I would like to return to the day or the period that your station wagon was being parked just before you took off. You have already testified to the fact, either earlier this afternoon or late this morning, that Lee Harvey Oswald appeared to be quite active in doing packing.

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Of household wares or goods that were being taken back to Irving, Tex. Were you present when the station wagon was loaded with the various materials?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, I was present for most if not all of that.

Mr. Jenner. Who did that?

Mrs. Paine. He put the things in. I knew that we would spend one night on the road, that there were certain things we would have to get too, and I knew where these were, and he didn't, so that I talked about where these things should be placed, and helped with some of the binding, tying things to the boat on the car rack.

Mr. Jenner. The boat on top of the station wagon?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now would you please tell us what there was in the way of luggage placed in the station wagon?

Mrs. Paine. There again the two large duffels which were heavier than I could move, he put those in.

Mr. Jenner. Describe their appearance, please.

Mrs. Paine. Again stuffed full, a rumply outside.

Mr. Jenner. With what?

Mrs. Paine. Rumply.

Mr. Jenner. Rumply? No appearance of any hard object pushing outwards?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Against the sides or ends of the duffel bags?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You saw nothing with respect to those duffel bags which might have led you to believe——

Mrs. Paine. A board in it, no.

Mr. Jenner. A tent pole, a long object, hard?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Nothing at all?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. And how many pieces of luggage?

Mrs. Paine. Again these same suitcases, 2 or 3, I think 3 including quite a small one, and the little radio.

Mr. Jenner. What about the zipper bag?

Mrs. Paine. That was there. I think so. Oh no, it probably wasn't. I don't recall the zipper bag as being part of that.

Mr. Jenner. I wish you would reflect a little on this because it is important, Mrs. Paine, if you can remember it as accurately as possible.

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall the zipper bag among those things.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall the zipper bag when you arrived in Irving?

20 Mrs. Paine. I think I saw him arrive with it himself, but I am not certain. No, wait, that may not be because I didn't see him when he first arrived.

Mr. Jenner. When you arrived in Irving, Mrs. Paine, not when he arrived.

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall that. I distinctly recall the duffels because it was all I could do to get them off of the car and set them on the grass until Michael could come and put them into the garage.

Mr. Jenner. Do you distinctly recall the hard-sided luggage you described yesterday?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. All of the pieces that you saw?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I don't recall that it was all. I couldn't even recall too well how many went down to New Orleans originally.

Mr. Jenner. Was there more than one?

Mrs. Paine. There was certainly more than one.

Mr. Jenner. Do you think there were more than two?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection as to whether there was a piece of luggage still apart from the zipper bag, still in the apartment at 4907 Magazine Street when you girls pulled out to go back to Irving?

Mrs. Paine. I have no specific recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Is it fair to say it is your best recollection at the moment that the zipper bag you have described earlier, you described yesterday, was not placed in the station wagon, and did not return with you to Irving?

Mrs. Paine. I do not recall it being in the station wagon.

Mr. Jenner. Now, was there a separate long package of any kind?

Mrs. Paine. I do not recall such a package.

Mr. Jenner. Was there a separate package of any character wrapped in a blanket?

Mrs. Paine. No. There was a basket such as you use for hanging your clothes. It carried exactly that, clothes and diapers, and they weren't as neat as being in suitcases and duffels would imply. There was leftovers stuffed in the corner, clothes and things, but rather open.

Mr. Jenner. So you saw no long rectangular package of any kind or character loaded in or placed in your station wagon?

Mrs. Paine. No, it doesn't mean it wasn't there, but I saw nothing of that nature.

Mr. Jenner. You saw nothing?

Mrs. Paine. I saw nothing.

Mr. Jenner. When you arrived in Irving, Tex., were you present when your station wagon was unpacked?

Mrs. Paine. Marina and I did that with the exception of the duffels.

Mr. Jenner. You did it all yourself and you took out of the station wagon everything in it other than the two duffel bags?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, in the process of removing everything other than the two duffel bags on the occasion on the 24th of September 1963 when you reached Irving, Tex., did you find or see any long rectangular package?

Mrs. Paine. I recall no such package.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see any kind of a package wrapped in the blanket?

Mrs. Paine. Not to my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see any package——

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall seeing the blanket either.

Mr. Jenner. On that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. On that occasion, not until later.

Mr. Jenner. Not until later.

Representative Ford. Did you see the blanket in New Orleans?

Mrs. Paine. On the bed or something. I am asking myself. I don't recall it specifically.

Mr. Jenner. Of course we all know the blanket to which we are referring, which I will ask you about in a moment. I might show it to you at the moment, or at least ask you if it is the blanket. I am exhibiting to the witness Commission Exhibit No. 140. Is this blanket familiar to you?

21 Mrs. Paine. Yes, it is.

Mr. Jenner. And give us the best recollection you have when you first saw it.

Mrs. Paine. My best recollection is that I saw it on the floor of my garage sometime in late October.

Mr. Jenner. 1963?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection of ever having seen it before that time?

Mrs. Paine. No. I might say also now that I know certainly I have never seen this binding until last night.

Mr. Jenner. When you say "this binding," you are pointing to what appears to be some black binding?

Mrs. Paine. Some hemstitching, it is sewn.

Mr. Jenner. On the edge of the blanket.

Mrs. Paine. Yes. This binding was not apparent, did not show.

Mr. Jenner. You never noticed the binding before, if the binding had always been on it, is that what you mean to say?

Mrs. Paine. When I saw the blanket the binding was not showing.

Representative Ford. How carefully did you analyze the blanket on the previous occasions?

Mrs. Paine. I stepped over it. I didn't pick it up or look at it closely.

Representative Ford. Didn't turn it over?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Representative Ford. Didn't move it?

Mrs. Paine. No, I didn't.

Representative Ford. So you only saw one surface more or less?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, only one surface, except I saw that it had been moved.

Representative Ford. But you didn't move it yourself?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. In what shape, that is form, was the blanket when you first saw it? And I take it you first saw it in your garage.

Mrs. Paine. That is my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. And it was subsequent to the time that you and Marina had returned to Irving?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you are certain that you did not see the blanket in your station wagon when you arrived in Irving?

Mrs. Paine. I do not recall seeing the blanket in my station wagon.

Mr. Jenner. And you didn't see it in their apartment at 4907 Magazine Street when you were there?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall seeing it there.

Mr. Jenner. Either in the spring or in the fall, is that true?

Mrs. Paine. That is true.

Mr. Jenner. Now tell us—I take it from your testimony that the blanket, when you first saw it in a garage, was in a configuration in the form of a package?

Mrs. Paine. It was a long rectangle shape with the ends tucked in.

Mr. Jenner. Would you be good enough to re-form that blanket so that it is in the shape and the dimension when you first saw it?

Mrs. Paine. About like so.

Mr. Jenner. For the record if you please, Mr. Chairman, the length of the form is just exactly 45 inches, and it is across exactly 12 inches.

Representative Ford. That is across lying flat.

Mr. Jenner. Across lying flat, thank you.

Now, what else about the form of the blanket did you notice on the occasion when you first saw it on your garage floor? Anything else?

Mrs. Paine. I recall from either that occasion or another that there were parallel strings around it.

Mr. Jenner. Tied?

Mrs. Paine. Into a bundle, yes, 3 or 4.

Mr. Jenner. How many were there?

Mrs. Paine. 3 or 4, I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. 3 or 4?

22 Mrs. Paine. Yes. I suppose it would be four. It would be very well spaced if it was only three, and I think they were closer than that.

Mr. Jenner. Your best recollection now.

Mrs. Paine. Is four.

Mr. Jenner. Rather than rationalization.

Mrs. Paine. Yes, there were four.

Mr. Jenner. There were four string ties across the 12-inch side of the blanket. Were those string ties pulled so they seemed to hold something inside the blanket?

Mrs. Paine. They didn't seem particularly tight, but then I don't have a strong recollection of them prior to the 22d.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever pick up that package?

Mrs. Paine. No, I never did.

Mr. Jenner. That was wrapped in the blanket. Did you ever have any discussion with Marina Oswald about the package in your garage?

Mrs. Paine. Not until the afternoon of the 22d.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see anybody move it about your garage at any time?

Mrs. Paine. No, I did not see anyone move it.

Mr. Jenner. And how long after you returned to Texas did you notice that package in your garage?

Mrs. Paine. I said I thought it was late October perhaps. I wouldn't be at all certain about when I first noticed it.

Mr. Jenner. And did you notice from time to time that it was in a different position or places in your garage?

Mrs. Paine. I recall two places I saw it.

Mr. Jenner. And the first was where?

Mrs. Paine. Over near—the radial saw, what do you call it, buzz saw?

Mr. Jenner. Bandsaw.

Mrs. Paine. No, buzz saw.

Mr. Jenner. Oh yes, a disc type, a buzz saw, near the buzz saw. Then on the second occasion when you saw it, where was it?

Mrs. Paine. Over near the work bench in front of part of the work bench, one end extending toward the bandsaw.

Mr. Jenner. And on both of those occasions was the package lying flat on the floor or was it upended?

Mrs. Paine. Flat on the floor.

Mr. Jenner. And you never had any curiosity with respect to it to lead you to step on it or feel it in any respect?

Mrs. Paine. No, I didn't.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have a lot of debris or articles in the garage?

Mrs. Paine. Indeed, and do yet. Our things and most of the Oswald things were stored there. I have mentioned several pieces of machine tools.

Mr. Jenner. We identified the garage picture at the tail end of yesterday, and I think the Chairman is seeking it.

Mr. McCloy. I am trying to find it now.

Mrs. Paine. That of course was taken more recently, but it is reasonably typical of its condition at that time too.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. Jenner. This is a photograph numbered eight, entitled garage interior, which I have marked with Commission number 429, and I now exhibit that to Mrs. Paine.

Are you familiar with what is depicted in that photograph?

Mrs. Paine. Very.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know when that photograph was taken?

Mrs. Paine. It was taken about 2 weeks ago.

Mr. Jenner. Were you present?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And does it accurately depict everything that was there and in its relative position at the time the picture was taken?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And it is your garage?

Mrs. Paine. It is.

23 Mr. Jenner. Would you locate on that, and I would like to have you place an X at the point in that picture that you first saw the package?

Mrs. Paine. Underneath that box.

Mr. Jenner. All right. You have written an arrow or X next to "on floor" and it is underneath the box that is on the floor.

Mrs. Paine. It was in front as I recall it; this was the buzz saw I was talking about, right here.

Mr. Jenner. Right here the witness is pointing to the right hand upper middle section of the photograph.

Mr. Dulles. Is this the first location of the package?

Mrs. Paine. It was over on that side of the garage, towards the door or——

Mr. Dulles. The first location of it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Toward what door, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Paine. Toward the front of the garage.

Mr. Jenner. Where did you see it on the second occasion?

Mrs. Paine. Part of it in front of this work bench, one right under this box here.

Mr. Jenner. Put a double X here, between this workbench and this bandsaw.

Mrs. Paine. On the floor.

Mr. Jenner. The workbench and the bandsaw to which the witness is pointing are on the left hand side of the photograph, the bandsaw being about the upper middle. Is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. The package was farther to the interior from the bench.

Mr. Jenner. It was toward the back rather than toward the door?

Mrs. Paine. It was the other side of the bandsaw so it was farther to the interior than its first location.

Mr. Jenner. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 429 the document which the witness has identified which in turn was identified as Commission Exhibit 429.

Mr. McCloy. It will be admitted.

(The photograph referred to, previously identified as Commission Exhibit No. 429, was received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. For the record, I am placing the rifle in the folded blanket as Mrs. Paine folded it. This is being done without the rifle being dismantled.

May the record show, Mr. Chairman, that the rifle fits well in the package from end to end, and it does not——

Mrs. Paine. Can you make it flatter?

Mr. Jenner. No; because the rifle is now in there.

Mrs. Paine. I just mean that——

Mr. Jenner. Was that about the appearance of the blanket wrapped package that you saw on your garage floor?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; although I recall it as quite flat.

Mr. Jenner. Flatter than it now appears to be?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. But it is not a clear recollection.

Mr. Jenner. You have a firm recollection that the package you saw was of the length?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, definitely.

Mr. Jenner. That is 45 inches, approximately. You had no occasion when you stepped on the package——

Mrs. Paine. I stepped over it.

Mr. Jenner. You always stepped over it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; until the afternoon of the 22d.

Mr. Jenner. By accident or otherwise, did you happen to come in contact with it?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You don't know whether there was anything solid or hard in it?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Dulles. Did it look about the way this package looks?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. Except for the fact it had some cord around it?

24 Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. When it had some cord around it, did the way it was tied pull it in or distort the shape?

Mrs. Paine. No; it didn't distort the shape.

Representative Ford. About the same shape even with the cord?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. The cords weren't pulled tight?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. They were relatively loosely tied?

Mrs. Paine. I recall this definite shape.

Mr. Jenner. To hold the blanket in that form rather than to hold the contents of the package firm, is that your impression?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. Are you going to ask about the husband's testimony in connection with the moving of the package?

Mr. Jenner. I did not intend to.

Mr. McCloy. I was not present but your husband testified he had moved the blanket from time to time but had not opened it. Did he ever refer to it? Did he ever speak to you about having had to move it while he was——

Mrs. Paine. Not until after the assassination.

Mr. McCloy. Not until after the assassination but before the assassination he had not complained about its being there or any difficulty in moving it?

Mrs. Paine. No; he did not mention it, and I was not present when he moved it.

Representative Ford. Was he the person who used these various woodworking pieces of equipment?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. Did he work in the garage?

Mrs. Paine. Well, he had—he made the workbench, and he had worked in the garage when he lived at the home and it has since been somewhat filled up.

Representative Ford. But during the time that you and Marina came back he didn't work in the garage?

Mrs. Paine. He did still cut occasionally something on the saws. Indeed, I did, too. I like to make children's blocks. I am trying to think when I last, if it is pertinent, when I used the saw.

Mr. McCloy. Did you use the saw while the blanket was on floor?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. McCloy. You had to step over the blanket to do that?

Mrs. Paine. Or around it.

Mr. McCloy. Or around it. But in the course of your use of the saw you never had the necessity or the occasion to readjust the blanket or move it in any way?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Dulles. Did we get the three locations here? I only see two.

Mr. Jenner. There were only two?

Mrs. Paine. Two that I recall.

Mr. Dulles. Only two.

Representative Ford. She made a mistake in the first drawing of the second one.

Mrs. Paine. I touched it by mistake.

Representative Ford. I think that ought to be clarified on the record.

Mr. Jenner. On the right-hand side of Commission Exhibit 429 there is an X or an arrow above which is written the words "on floor". That is the first location point at which you saw the package?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. On the left-hand side, the lower half of the photograph there is a double X.

Mrs. Paine. Which I could not put in enough to give the proportion.

Mr. Jenner. You mean in the photograph?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that where you saw the package for the second time?

25 Mrs. Paine. Yes; as I have described it. The position I have described is more accurate than the XX.

Mr. Jenner. There is a red strip above the table with the tablecloth on it.

Mrs. Paine. That is an accident with my hand.

Mr. Jenner. That was an accident on your part?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. So there are only two locations?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Now, Mr. Chairman, may I reinsert the rifle in the package, on the opposite side from what it was before, and have the witness look at it?

Mr. McCloy. You may.

We are back on the record.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Chairman, I have now placed the opposite side of the rifle to the floor, and may the record show that the package is much flatter. The rifle when inserted firstly was turned on the side of the bolt which operates the rifle which forced it up higher.

Now does the package look more familiar to you, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Paine. I recall it as being more like this, not as lumpy as the other had been.

Mr. Jenner. More in the form it is now?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now directing your attention to the rifle itself, which is Commission Exhibit 139, when did you first see that rifle, if you have ever seen it?

Mrs. Paine. I saw a rifle I judge to have been the same one at the police station on the afternoon of November 22, I don't recall the strap.

Mr. Jenner. You don't recall at the time you saw it on the 22d of November in the police station that it had a strap?

Mrs. Paine. It may well have had one but I don't specifically recall it. I was interested in the sight.

Mr. Jenner. Had you ever seen this rifle prior to the afternoon of November 22?

Mrs. Paine. No.

(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. Jenner. Now, we do have some particular interest, Mrs. Paine, in the rifle strap. Had you ever had around your house a luggage strap or a guitar strap similar to the strap that appears on Commission Exhibit 139?

Mrs. Paine. No; in fact, I don't recall ever seeing a strap of that nature.

Mr. Jenner. Whether in your home or anywhere else?

Mrs. Paine. Precisely.

Mr. Jenner. And you are unable to identify or suggest its source?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. What do you have in your home, Mrs. Paine, by way of heavy wrapping paper?

Mrs. Paine. I have the sort of paper you buy at the dime store to wrap packages, about 36 inches long, coming in a roll.

Mr. Jenner. Exhibiting to you Commission Exhibit No. 364, is the wrapping paper that you have in your home as heavy as that?

Mrs. Paine. I don't believe it is quite that heavy and it certainly isn't quite that long. Well, it could have been cut the otherway, couldn't it, possibly?

Mr. Jenner. What about its shade, color?

Mrs. Paine. It would be similar to that.

Mr. Jenner. Similar in shade.

Do you have the broad banded sticky tape or sticky tape of this nature?

Mrs. Paine. There is no tape this wide in my home nor to my recollection has there ever been.

Mr. Jenner. You have whole rolls of this tape, of the paper in your home?

Mrs. Paine. A whole roll.

Mr. Jenner. A whole roll?

Mrs. Paine. Which I use for wrapping packages, mailing.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have string in your home that you use in attaching to this wrapping?

26 Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you by any chance know the weight of the string that wrapped the blanket package as against the strength or weight of the string that you normally used in your home for packages?

Mrs. Paine. It was similar in weight, rather thin.

Representative Ford. Color was the same?

Mrs. Paine. I think it was a whitish color on the blanket and one of the rolls I have is that.

Representative Ford. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you say it was a relatively light package string?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Not a rope type?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, no.

Mr. Jenner. And the string you saw on the blanket package was of the lighter weight type and not——

Mrs. Paine. And of the lighter color too, I think.

Mr. Jenner. And the lighter color.

Now, you and Marina arrived home on the 24th of September, with the packages and contents of the station wagon, and, save the duffel bags, they were moved into your home, and everybody settled down?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. When next was there—did you hear from Lee Harvey Oswald at any time thereafter?

Mrs. Paine. Not until the afternoon of the 4th, which I have already referred to.

Mr. Jenner. No word whatsoever from him from the 24th of September?

Mrs. Paine. 23d we left him in New Orleans.

Mr. Jenner. 23d of September, until the 4th of October?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct; no word.

Mr. Jenner. By letter, telephone?

Mrs. Paine. Or pigeon.

Mr. Jenner. Or otherwise, anything whatsoever?

Mrs. Paine. No word.

Mr. Jenner. Did you and Marina have discussions in that 10-day period about where Lee was or might be?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. None whatsoever? Did you have any discussion about the fact that you hadn't heard from Lee Harvey Oswald in 14 days or 10 days?

Mrs. Paine. No; we didn't.

Mr. Jenner. No discussion on that at all. What did you and Marina discuss during that 10-day period?

Mrs. Paine. I can't recall which was during that period or which was after; general conversation.

Mr. Jenner. Was it generally small talk, ladies talk about the house?

Mrs. Paine. It was generally what my vocabulary permitted and then she would reminisce, her vocabulary being much larger, about her life in Russia, about the movies she had seen. We talked about the children and their health. We talked about washing, about cooking.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have ladies visit. Did ladies in the neighborhood come and visit?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you go to neighbors homes?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. With Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Again, I can't recall which was before October 4th and which was after, but there was the normal flow nonetheless——

Mr. Jenner. And interested people?

Mrs. Paine. Of my visiting at other people's homes and particularly Mrs. Roberts or Mrs. Craig.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Roberts was your next door neighbor and Mrs. Craig was how many doors down or across the street?

27 Mrs. Paine. She is, you have to drive. You have to drive to her home. She is the young German woman to whom I referred.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. Was there any discussion during this 10-day period of Marina's relations with her husband, Lee?

Mrs. Paine. Not that I recall.

Mr. Jenner. She expressed no concern during this 10-day period, that no word had been heard from Lee?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did she evidence any—did she do or say anything during that period to indicate she did not expect to hear from him during that 10 days period?

Mrs. Paine. No; she did not.

Mr. Jenner. There was nothing?

Mrs. Paine. There was nothing.

Mr. Jenner. Did it come to your mind that it was curious you hadn't heard from Lee Harvey Oswald for 10 whole days?

Mrs. Paine. No; it didn't seem curious. I know he had spent at least 2 weeks looking for work on previous occasions in different cities and I thought he wanted to find something before he communicated.

Mr. Jenner. But in view of the affection that had been evidenced on the day of departure on the 23d, you were not bothered by the fact that not even a telephone call had been received in 10 days?

Mrs. Paine. If he was not in town I wouldn't have at all expected a telephone call because that would have cost him dearly.

Mr. Jenner. He might have made it collect.

Mrs. Paine. I didn't expect that either.

Mr. Jenner. But there was no telephone call, there was no postcard, there was no letter?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. There was nothing?

Mrs. Paine. There could well have been a letter but there was none.

Mr. Dulles. Where did you think he was at this time?

Mrs. Paine. Houston.

Mr. Dulles. Houston, looking for a job? Houston?

Mrs. Paine. Houston, possibly.

Mr. Jenner. Because of the conversation on the morning of the 23d, because of the possibility of his going to Houston or Philadelphia, your frame of mind was that he was either in Houston or Philadelphia?

Mrs. Paine. I thought he probably was in Houston. The Philadelphia reference was very slight.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any reference or discussion between you and Marina during that period of the possibility that he was off in Houston looking for work?

Mrs. Paine. No, there was not.

Mr. Jenner. You are sure there was just no discussion of the subject at all during that whole 10 days period with Marina?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall any discussion of it.

Mr. Jenner. She expressed no concern and you none?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. That nobody had heard from Lee.

All right.

You heard from him on the 4th of October?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you give the Commission the circumstances, the time of day and how it came about?

Mrs. Paine. He telephoned in early afternoon, something after lunchtime.

Mr. Jenner. The phone rang. Did you answer it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And did you recognize the voice?

Mrs. Paine. He asked to speak to Marina.

Mr. Jenner. Whose voice was it?

Mrs. Paine. Well, after he asked to speak to Marina, I was certain it was Lee's.

Mr. Jenner. What did you say?

28 Mrs. Paine. I said "here" and gave her the phone.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't say "where are you", or "I am glad to hear from you, where have you been?"

Mrs. Paine. No. I thought that was her's to ask. He wished to speak to her and I gave her the phone and, of course, that is what was then asked. I heard her say to him——

Mr. Jenner. You heard her side of the conversation, did you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

What did you hear her say?

Mrs. Paine. I heard her say, "No, Mrs. Paine, she can't come and pick you up."

Mr. Jenner. Was she speaking in Russian?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Throughout?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. When Lee asked for Marina, did he speak in English or Russian?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall. And Marina went on to say that Mrs. Paine, "Ruth has just been to Parkland Hospital this morning to donate blood, she shouldn't be going driving now to pick you up."

Mr. Jenner. Did she refer to you as Mrs. Paine or Ruth?

Mrs. Paine. No; I am trying to make it clear who is being talked about.

Mr. Jenner. I see. You might give your testimony the wrong cast.

Mrs. Paine. No; of course. She referred to me as "Ruth" or "she".

To Junie, she called me Aunt Ruth. To Junie, speaking of me to her little girl, she referred to me as Aunt Ruth.

Mr. Jenner. You are giving the conversation now, the end of it that you heard?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. Then I heard Marina say "Why didn't you call?"

Mr. Jenner. You did hear her say that?

Mrs. Paine. I believe so. I certainly remember her saying it afterward. She hung up and she explained the conversation to me.

Mr. Jenner. What did she say to you?

Mrs. Paine. That he had asked for me to come in to downtown Dallas to pick him up and she said no; he should find his own way.

Mr. Jenner. To come to downtown Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. To come to downtown Dallas to pick him up, and she never asked me whether I wanted to or would have, told him, no; it was an imposition, that I had just given blood at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. Jenner. And you had in fact given blood?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes; indeed.

Mr. Jenner. That morning?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I have a card or the FBI does to that effect. Then she said that he had said that he was at the Y, staying at the Y, and had been in town a couple of days, to which she said, "Why didn't you call right away?", in other words, "why didn't you call right away upon getting to town?"

Then he also asked whether he could come out; this was, of course, during the conversation, and she referred the question to me, could he come out for the weekend, and I said, yes, he could.

Mr. Jenner. This was while she was still talking on the telephone?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. Prior to his asking for a ride.

So then they hung up and I went grocery shopping, and when——

Mr. Jenner. You left the home?

Mrs. Paine. I left the home.

Mr. Jenner. You have now exhausted your recollection as to everything that was said to you by Marina after she hung up and was relating to you, at least a summary of the conversation with her husband?

Mrs. Paine. I believe it was also said that he wanted to look for work in Dallas. He was here, staying at the Y. Could he come out for the weekend. He planned to look for work in Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Did you say anything about—were you stimulated to say anything to Marina29 about any of the subject matters of that conversation as she reported it to you?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You expressed no response, made no response to her having made a statement to her husband that—of her surprise as to why he hadn't called and if he were just over in Dallas and staying at the Y?

Mrs. Paine. I thought that but I didn't try to put it in Russian.

Mr. Jenner. There was no discussion is all I am getting at.

What did she say as to his coming out by whatever means he could get there? Was there any discussion of that?

Mrs. Paine. It implied whatever means, that he shouldn't ask me to——

Mr. Jenner. He was coming?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. But that you were not going to go to get him?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you left and went to the grocery store or market?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. When you returned, was Lee at your home?

Mrs. Paine. He was already there, which surprised me greatly.

Mr. Jenner. Why did it surprise you?

Mrs. Paine. Because I thought he would have to take a public bus to Irving, they run very rarely if at all during the afternoon, and I thought he would have considerable difficulty getting out. I thought it would be at least supper time before he got there.

Mr. Jenner. How much time elapsed between the time you left and the time you returned?

Mrs. Paine. Shopping? Oh, I don't know, perhaps an hour, perhaps a little less.

Representative Ford. Where did you go shopping?

Mrs. Paine. The grocery store in the same parking lot where we practiced.

Mr. Jenner. That was three blocks away?

Mrs. Paine. It is a little more than that. These would be long blocks.

Mr. Jenner. Did any conversation ensue as to how he had, by what means he had come from Dallas to Irving?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. He then said that he had hitchhiked out, caught a ride with someone who brought him straight to the door, a Negro man.

Mr. Jenner. To your door?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. To whom he said that he had been away from his wife and child and he was just now getting home, and the man kindly brought him directly to the door.

Mr. Jenner. Where did this conversation take place?

Mrs. Paine. In the home that afternoon.

Mr. Jenner. When you returned to your home, that was in the afternoon, wasn't it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Where was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Was he inside the home or outside?

Mrs. Paine. Inside, I believe.

Mr. Jenner. Did any conversation ensue as to where he had been in that 10-day interim?

Mrs. Paine. Where he had been?

Mr. Jenner. Where he had been in the intervening 10 days?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; he said to me that he had been in Houston and that he hadn't been able to find work there and was now going to try in Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about Philadelphia?

Mrs. Paine. Nothing.

Mr. Jenner. From your testimony I gather he did not say anything about Mexico?

Mrs. Paine. No; he did not.

Mr. Jenner. Was Marina present when he stated to you that he had been in Houston looking for work?

30 Mrs. Paine. That is my recollection of it; yes.

Mr. Jenner. You never had any conversation with her up to the 23d or 22d of November on the subject of whether Lee had or had not been in Mexico?

Mrs. Paine. We never had such a conversation.

Mr. Jenner. Despite your having read that letter on the 10th of November in which he stated that he had been?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. Now there was no occasion in that letter that she may have known that he went any more than there was certain indication to my mind that this was true and not false. Had I looked at the peso, this would have been the only occasion that she knew.

Mr. Jenner. But the fact is, apart from your rationalization now there was no conversation on that subject?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. How long did he remain in your home?

Mrs. Paine. Monday morning——

The Chairman. Before you get to that, I want to ask a question about giving the blood that day. Did you give it for a particular person or for a blood bank?

Mrs. Paine. It was for Marina. For each of the persons who come in under county care they ask you to donate two pints of blood, one at a time.

The Chairman. I see. And you donated one pint for her?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

The Chairman. Thank you.

Mr. Jenner. How long did he remain in your home on this visit?

Mrs. Paine. Until Monday morning, the 7th of October, almost noon, in fact, when I took him to an Intercity bus at the Irving bus station.

Mr. Jenner. This is that bus terminal approximately 3 miles from your home?

Mrs. Paine. That same day I gave him a map to assist him in job hunting.

Mr. Jenner. All right. I would like to get to that.

I show you what is in evidence, I don't know whether it is received or not; it is a Commission Exhibit No. 128, and ask you if you have ever seen that before?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. Is that the map to which you now have reference?

Mrs. Paine. I would say it is.

Mr. Jenner. What did you do with the map with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald on this occasion?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall who asked, who mentioned a map first, but, of course, I knew, and he did, that it would be a useful thing to have job hunting. I think he asked if I had a map of the city of Dallas and I said, yes, I did, and I can easily get another at the gas station, one of these.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, it is your clear recollection that this document, Commission Exhibit No. 128, a map, is the map that you gave Lee Harvey Oswald, this was October 7th?

Mrs. Paine. It was certainly this kind of map, whether it is the identical map, I couldn't say for sure, but I much prefer the ENCO map of the city and this is the kind I always get to use. So this is the kind I had in mind.

Mr. Jenner. So, to the best of your recollection, the coloring has been changed a little bit because of attempts to draw fingerprints from it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. But your best recollection now, observing it, is that this is the document?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you examine it carefully and see that there might be something on it that would arrest your attention as your having placed thereon or Lee?

Mrs. Paine. I have examined this carefully and a copy of it.

Mr. Jenner. On other occasions?

Mrs. Paine. On other occasions, and I could not at any time find a marking that I had made.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall having made any markings?

Mrs. Paine. I do not recall having made any markings on this particular map. Sometime on some maps I knew I had made remarks where I was going.

31 Mr. Jenner. Just for the purpose of the record, may I reverse it, and you see no markings on the reverse side, I take it?

Mrs. Paine. No; which is Fort Worth, not Dallas, isn't it?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; it is.

All right, now tell us about that incident?

Mrs. Paine. The map?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. I have.

Mr. Jenner. That is all there was to it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you suggest, was there any discussion of, particular places of employment?

Mrs. Paine. There was no such discussion.

Mr. Jenner. As to which he might inquire?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. What did he—did you hand him the map?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And was it opened before you and Lee in your discussions?

Mrs. Paine. No, no; we didn't discuss. He said, do I have a map, and I said, yes, I do, you may have it.

Mr. Jenner. You handed it to him, and that was all that occurred?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And did he place it in his pocket or did he go into his room or his and Marina's room and place it there?

Mrs. Paine. He may have already been on his way to the bus station when this conversation occurred and took it with him.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

I notice what appears to be a notation that the document has not as yet been offered in evidence, Mr. Chairman, and I offer in evidence, therefore, as Commission Exhibit No. 128, the document heretofore identified by that exhibit number.

Mr. McCloy. It may be admitted.

(The document referred to, heretofore marked as Commission Exhibit No. 128 for identification, was received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. Was Marina present during this discussion of his job hunting?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall. I seem to think we were on our way out already to go in our car to the bus station.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina accompany you?

Mrs. Paine. No; she did not.

Mr. Jenner. She did not?

Mrs. Paine. She stayed home with the baby. My children probably went with me, I don't recall specifically.

Mr. Jenner. That is the baby, you mean June?

Mrs. Paine. June.

Mr. Jenner. You drove into the bus terminal approximately 3 miles from your home. Did you remain until the bus came along?

Mrs. Paine. I think so.

Mr. Jenner. You saw him depart?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said about where he would reside in Dallas before he left?

Mrs. Paine. I am not certain, but I think he said the Y was rather expensive. He was going to look for a room.

Mr. McCloy. What was the date you took him into the bus station?

Mrs. Paine. That is the 7th of October.

Mr. McCloy. The 7th of October?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was there an occasion in this early period that you drove him all the way into Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. I can't recall ever driving him all the way into Dallas.

Mr. Jenner. At any time?

32 Mrs. Paine. We drove, except to the Oak Cliff Station for this driver training test.

Mr. Jenner. That is the only occasion?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; that is the only one I recall. Can you refresh my memory. I can't think of any other.

Mr. Jenner. You are clear that you drove him from your home to the bus terminal in Irving?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And either you left immediately or waited to see him board the bus, but it is your definite recollection you did not drive him to the Dallas downtown area on that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, I did once drive him to the Dallas downtown area, because I recall where he got out. Now why I was going—yes, I think I may know why I was going.

Mr. Jenner. Fix the time first.

Mrs. Paine. I do recall now driving him into downtown Dallas because I was already going and it was probably Monday, the 14th of October.

Mr. Jenner. This is the day before his employment began with the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. Paine. It would have been 2 days before, the day before he applied. I have several recollections but which day they attach to is not quite as clear.

I recall taking him to the bus. I recall picking him up at the bus. I recall going in and dropping him off at a corner of Ross Avenue and something else, which was near the employment office.

Mr. Jenner. In downtown Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. Near the employment office station. I was on my way to get a key fixed on my Russian typewriter which is what was taking me downtown. I hadn't been thinking—I at no time made a purposeful trip just to take him to downtown Dallas, but I was going and he went along and I am pretty sure that was a Monday and he got out at that corner and Marina was with me and we went on to get this typewriter fixed either to pick it up or to leave it. I am quite certain it was the 12th, Saturday, that I picked him up at the station.

Mr. Jenner. At the bus terminal?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. And I am pretty certain that it was the 7th I took him to the bus station. I recall it being already noon, and I thought he might well have started looking for a job earlier that day.

Mr. Jenner. When next did you hear from Mr. Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. After the 7th. Probably on the 12th when he called again to ask if he could come out for the weekend.

Mr. Jenner. The 12th is what day of the week?

Mrs. Paine. The 12th is a Saturday.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall that he did call?

Mrs. Paine. Pardon?

Mr. Jenner. Did you recall that he did telephone and ask permission to come?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, indeed he did.

Mr. Jenner. Did he always do that?

Mrs. Paine. He always did that with the exception of the 21st of November.

Mr. Jenner. We will get to that in a very few moments.

Mr. McCloy. Before you get to that you said you went all the way into Dallas with this errand, that Marina was with you.

Mrs. Paine. That is my recollection.

Mr. McCloy. What did you do with the children?

Mrs. Paine. We always take them.

Mr. McCloy. Took them all, put them all in the station wagon?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; big station wagon.

Mr. Jenner. By the way, I would like to go back a little. When you picked him up at the bus station on the afternoon of the 4th of October, what did he have——

Mrs. Paine. On the afternoon of the 12th, around noon of the 12th.

Mr. Jenner. Please, when he first returned to Irving after——

Mrs. Paine. He hitchhiked out.

33 Mr. Jenner. On the occasion that he told you he had been in Houston looking for a job?

Mrs. Paine. The 4th, he hitchhiked out.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

It is that occasion that I have in mind.

What did he have with him in the way of luggage?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall certainly. It does seem to me that I remember he took the zipper bag on Monday, the following Monday, with him to town, along with some clothes over his arm, ironed shirts, things that are hung on hangers.

Mr. Jenner. With respect to that trip——

Mrs. Paine. You must remember I was shopping when he arrived on the afternoon of the 4th.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. So I didn't see him when he arrived that moment.

Mr. Jenner. But you do have a recollection of having seen the zipper bag on Monday?

Mrs. Paine. The 7th.

Mr. Jenner. When you took him to the bus terminal for the purpose of his returning to downtown Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. To find a room and live there and have sufficient clothing there.

That is my best recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Is that the first time you had seen the zipper bag?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. From the time you had left New Orleans on the 23d?

Mrs. Paine. So far as I recall.

Mr. Jenner. Did you notice anything else in the way of pieces of luggage in your home after you came back from the shopping center that afternoon of October 4th that hadn't been there prior to his arrival?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. The only piece of luggage of which you have any recollection then is the zipper bag which you saw him take with him when he left on Monday morning, the 7th?

Mrs. Paine. And that is, I would not say a certain recollection. But that is the best I have.

Mr. Jenner. It is your best recollection anyhow?

Mrs Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, when you returned to your home did you have any discussion with Marina about Lee's departure and his future plans and her understanding of them?

Mrs. Paine. No; nothing I recall specifically.

Mr. Jenner. None at all.

What discussion went on between you and Marina, that is the subject matter with respect to his weekend visits?

Mrs. Paine. She wanted to be certain it was all right for him to come out, you know that it wasn't too much of an imposition on me. We got into discussing his efforts to find a job. Then Monday, the 14th as best as I recall, was the first time we talked about him, more than to say it was too bad he didn't find something. This is the——

Mr. Jenner. During the course of the week was there discussion between you and Marina respecting Lee Oswald's attempt at employment?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Now, there came an occasion, did there not, that weekend or the following weekend at which there was a discussion at least by you with some neighbors with respect to efforts to obtain employment for Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. As best I can reconstruct it this was, while having coffee at my immediate neighbors, Mrs. Ed Roberts, and also present was Mrs. Bill Randle, and Lee had said over the weekend that he had gotten the last of the unemployment compensation checks that were due him, and that it had been smaller than the others had been, and disappointing in its smallness and he looked very discouraged when he went to look for work.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about amount?

34 Mrs. Paine. I didn't hear the question.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything about amount?

Mrs. Paine. No; he didn't, just less.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. And the subject of his looking for work and that he hadn't found work for a week, came up while we were having coffee, the four young mothers at Mrs. Roberts' house, and Mrs. Randle mentioned that her younger brother, Wesley Frazier thought they needed another person at the Texas School Book Depository where Wesley worked.

Marina then asked me, after we had gone home, asked me if I would call——

Mr. Jenner. Was Marina present during this discussion?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; Marina was present, yes, indeed.

Mr. Jenner. Did she understand the conversation?

Mrs. Paine. It was a running translation, running, faulty translation going on.

Mr. Jenner. You were translating for her?

Mrs. Paine. I was acting as her translator. And then after we came home she asked me if I would call the School Book Depository to see if indeed there was the possibility of an opening, and at her request, I did telephone——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, please.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. While you were still in the Roberts' home was there any discussion at all of the subject mentioned by you or by Mrs. Randle or Mrs. Roberts or anyone else, of calls to be made, or that might be made, to the Texas School Book Depository in this connection?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall this discussion. As I recall it was a suggestion made by Marina to me after we got home, but I may be wrong.

Mr. Jenner. But that is your best recollection that you are now testifying to?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You reached home and Marina suggested that "Would you please call the Texas School Depository?"

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What did you do?

Mrs. Paine. I looked up the number in the book, and dialed it, was told I would need to speak to Mr. Truly, who was at the warehouse. The phone was taken to Mr. Truly, and I talked with him and said——

Mr. Jenner. You mean the call was transferred by the operator?

Mrs. Paine. To Mr. Truly, and I said I know of a young man whose wife was staying in my house, the wife was expecting a child, they already had a little girl and he had been out of work for a while and was very interested in getting any employment and his name, and was there a possibility of an opening there, and Mr. Truly said he didn't know whether he had an opening, that the young man should apply himself in person.

Mr. Jenner. Which made sense.

Mrs. Paine. Made very good sense for a personnel man to say.

Mr. Jenner. Did you make more than one call to this Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Only the one?

Mrs. Paine. Only the one.

Mr. Jenner. What was the date of this call?

Mrs. Paine. Reconstructing it, I believe it was October 14.

Mr. Jenner. What day of the week is October 14?

Mrs. Paine. It is a Monday.

Mr. Jenner. Following that call and your talking with Mr. Truly, what did you do?

Mrs. Paine. Began to get dinner. Then Lee call the house.

Mr. Jenner. In the evening?

Mrs. Paine. In the early evening.

Mr. Jenner. Did you talk with him?

Mrs. Paine. Marina talked with him, then asked—then Marina asked me to35 tell Lee in English what had transpired regarding the possible job opening, and then I did say that there might be an opening in the School Book Depository, that Mr. Truly was the man to apply to. Shall I go on?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. The next day——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, I meant go on as far as the conversation was concerned.

Mrs. Paine. That is all there was.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, I would like to return just for a moment to the conversation in the Roberts' home.

Was any possible place of employment in addition to the Texas School Depository mentioned?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You have no recollection of any other suggestion as to possible places of employment?

Mrs. Paine. I have no recollection of that.

Mr. Jenner. You have no recollection of any other, at least two other places being suggested, and you, in turn, stating that they would be unsatisfactory, one because an automobile had to be used, or it would be necessary for Lee to have an automobile, and the other that he was lacking in the possible qualifications needed? None of that refreshes your recollection?

Mrs. Paine. None of that refreshes my recollection. I certainly know that I thought, for instance, he couldn't have applied to Bell Helicopter or to any place apart from the city area.

Mr. Jenner. But Bell Helicopter was not mentioned?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall it being mentioned.

Mr. Jenner. Your husband is employed by Bell Helicopter, is he not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Had you made an inquiry of your husband as to the possibility of employment by Lee Harvey Oswald with Bell Helicopter?

Mrs. Paine. No; I hadn't, especially knowing that he had no way of getting there.

Mr. Jenner. Unless he knew how to drive a car?

Mrs. Paine. Unless he knew how to drive a car.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't believe he was proficient enough at this moment to operate it?

Mrs. Paine. We have got on record here that I gave him the first lesson on the 13th of October.

Mr. Jenner. And in any event were you aware he had no driver's license?

Mrs. Paine. I certainly was.

Mr. Jenner. Especially that week?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you give him the telephone number and the address of the Texas School Book Depository on the occasion when you talked to him, this is the 14th?

Mrs. Paine. The address, I don't think so. I probably gave the phone number. I don't recall that I gave him an address.

Mr. Jenner. Directing your attention to your address book, you have an entry in your address book of the Texas School Depository, do you not? Would you turn to that page?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have it here.

Mr. Jenner. Is there an entry of address of the Texas School Depository on that page?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; which I believe I made after he gained employment there.

Mr. Jenner. Rather than at the time that you advised him of this possibility?

Mrs. Paine. Indeed.

Mr. Jenner. Have you made an entry of the telephone number of the Texas School Book Depository on that date?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have and of the address.

Mr. Jenner. And that is the telephone number and the address of the Texas School Depository Building where——

Mrs. Paine. On Elm Street.

36 Mr. Jenner. I heard you mention the Texas School Depository warehouse. Did you think the warehouse was at 411 Elm?

Mrs. Paine. No. I had seen a sign on a building as I went along one of the limited access highways that leads into Dallas, saying "Texas School Book Depository Warehouse" and there was the only building that had registered on my consciousness as being Texas School Book Depository.

I was not aware, hadn't taken in the idea of there being two buildings and that there was one on Elm, though, I copied the address from the telephone book, and could well have made that notation in my mind but I didn't.

The first I realized that there was a building on Elm was when I heard on the television on the morning of the 22d of November that a shot had been fired from such a building.

Mr. Jenner. For the purpose of this record then I would like to emphasize you were under the impression then, were you, that Lee Harvey Oswald was employed?

Mrs. Paine. At the warehouse.

Mr. Jenner. Other than at 411, a place at 411 Elm?

Mrs. Paine. I thought he worked at the warehouse. I had in fact, pointed out the building to my children going into Dallas later after he had gained employment.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever discuss with Lee Harvey Oswald where he actually was employed, that is the location of the building?

Mrs. Paine. No; I didn't.

Mr. Jenner. Did he ever mention it?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. There never was any discussion between you and, say, young Mr. Frazier or Mrs. Randle or anyone in the neighborhood as to where the place of employment is located?

Mrs. Paine. No. It may be significant here to say, my letter to which I have already referred——

Mr. Jenner. Commission Exhibit No.——

Mrs. Paine. 425, which says, "Lee Oswald is looking for work in Dallas," does not give a time of day.

Mr. Jenner. What is the date of that letter?

Mrs. Paine. October 14, Monday.

Mr. Jenner. This is the letter to your mother?

Mrs. Paine. But I don't normally write letters any time except when the children are asleep, they sometimes nap but usually this is in the evening.

If it were in the evening it means that he had gotten the suggestion as to a place to apply, but I didn't mention that. I only mentioned that he was looking and was discouraged.

I bring this out simply to say that I had no real hopes that he would get a job at the School Book Depository.

I didn't think it too likely that he would, but it was worth a try.

Mr. Jenner. Did you hear from him then either on the 14th or 15th in respect to his effort to obtaining employment at the Texas School Depository?

Mrs. Paine. He called immediately on Tuesday, the 15th, after he had been accepted and said he would start work the next day.

Mr. Jenner. When you say immediately, what time of day was that?

Mrs. Paine. Midmorning I would say, which was contrary to his usual practice of calling in the early evening.

Mr. Jenner. By the way, is the call from Dallas, Tex., to Irving a toll call?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. What is its cost, 10 cents?

Mrs. Paine. I expect so.

Mr. Jenner. Did you answer the phone on the occasion he called?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What happened?

Mrs. Paine. He asked for Marina.

Mr. Jenner. He said nothing to you about his success?

Mrs. Paine. No.

37 Mr. Jenner. As soon as you answered he asked for Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did he identify himself?

Mrs. Paine. No; but I am certain he knew that I knew who he was.

Mr. Jenner. You recognized his voice, did you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You called her to the phone.

Did you hear her end of the conversation?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What took place by way of of conversation?

Mrs. Paine. She said, "Hurray, he has got a job." Immediately telling me as she still talked to the telephone that he had been accepted for work at the school book depository and thanks to me and she said, "We must thank Mrs. Randle."

Mr. Jenner. Did you return to the telephone and speak with him?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You did not. Where was he residing then, did you know?

Mrs. Paine. No; I did not know.

Mr. Jenner. Had you had any information that he was not residing at the YMCA?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. How did you come by that information?

Mrs. Paine. He gave me a telephone number, possibly this same weekend.

Mr. Jenner. That is of importance, Mrs. Paine. Would you give us the circumstances, please?

Mrs. Paine. He said that he was at a——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, where was he when he said this?

Mrs. Paine. He was at the home so far as I remember. It might have been during one of his telephone calls to the house, but I don't think so. He rarely talked with me when he was out.

Mr. Jenner. This would be the weekend of what?

Mrs. Paine. So this must have been the weekend of the 12th of October, the same weekend.

Mr. Jenner. That was the weekend following his return to Dallas on the 7th of October?

Mrs. Paine. Fourth of October.

Mr. Jenner. He departed on the 7th.

Mrs. Paine. His return to Dallas, I am sorry.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; now, give it as chronologically as you can; how you came by that telephone number, the circumstances under which it was given to you.

Mrs. Paine. He said this is the telephone number.

Mr. Jenner. Was Marina present?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. He said of the room where he was staying, renting a room, and I could reach him here if she went into labor.

Mr. Jenner. I see, the coming of the baby was imminent?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. When was the baby expected?

Mrs. Paine. Any time after the first week in October. Any time, in other words.

Mr. Jenner. The obstetrician predicted the birth of the child as when?

Mrs. Paine. As due on the 22d.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina have a different notion?

Mrs. Paine. She thought it might be due around the 8th.

Mr. Jenner. So there was a considerable variance in the expectation between the date and when the baby actually did arrive? When did the baby actually arrive?

Mrs. Paine. On the 20th of October, a Sunday.

Mr. Jenner. Did he give you more than one telephone number?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. At this occasion did he give you more than one telephone number?

Mrs. Paine. No.

38 Mr. Jenner. Just stick to this particular occasion. What telephone number—did you record it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. In what?

Mrs. Paine. In ink in my telephone book.

Mr. Jenner. Your telephone and address book?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Have you opened that telephone address book to the page in which you have made that recording?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. Is that the page you identified yesterday?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Mr. Chairman, may I examine it for a moment here.

Now, relate for the record the telephone number that Mr. Oswald gave you, the first one he gave you on this particular occasion?

Mrs. Paine. The number was WH 2-1985.

Mr. Jenner. And that is at the bottom of the page written in ink.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that in your handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. What exchange is "WH" in Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. I don't know. I did not know. I know now, maybe I know, Whitehall, something. I know now what it is, but I didn't know then.

Mr. Jenner. Did he on that occasion say anything about where the apartment or room was?

Mrs. Paine. No; he did not.

Mr. Jenner. He did not give you an address?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Didn't locate it in any area in Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. All he gave you was the telephone number?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did he say anything that would indicate to you that you are other than free to call him and ask for him by his surname you knew him by?

Mrs. Paine. No; he did not make such a limitation.

Mr. Jenner. I take it from your testimony that the number was given to you, at least the discussion was, so that you could call him in connection with the oncoming event of the birth of his child?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Am I correct about this?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Now, you have mentioned a second number that Mr. Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald, gave you. Did you receive that second number subsequent to the birth of Rachel or prior to that time?

Mrs. Paine. Also prior to the birth of Rachel.

Mr. Jenner. Now, relate for the Commission the circumstances under which you received a second number?

Mrs. Paine. He gave me a second number, I suppose by phone, but I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. When?

Mrs. Paine. It was certainly before the birth of the baby because again it was so that I could reach him if she went to the hospital.

Mr. Jenner. He called you or related this to you in your home?

Mrs. Paine. What?

Mr. Jenner. He either called you by telephone or he was present in your home and gave you the second number?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Which recollection serves you best, that he called or that he gave it to you in your home?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say?

Mrs. Paine. He said he moved to different rooms, was paying a dollar a39 week more, $8 instead of $7; incidentally, I needed to know how much he was paying in order to put this on the form of Parkland Hospital, but that it was a little more comfortable and he had television privileges and privileges to use the refrigerator. And he gave me this number.

Mr. Jenner. This was after he obtained employment with the Texas School Book Depository, was it?

Mrs. Paine. I would rationalize that I have judged so.

Mr. Jenner. Is it your best recollection?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. On the second occasion did he give you the location or even the area in Dallas where his second room was located?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you inquire of him?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. No address?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Was the telephone number given you with any reservation as to when you might call him?

Mrs. Paine. No such reservation.

Mr. Jenner. Any indication that you should ask him, asking for him by other than his surname by which you knew him?

Mrs. Paine. No such indication.

Mr. Jenner. Now, the baby was born on the——

Mrs. Paine. Twentieth.

Mr. Jenner. Twentieth of October. Was Lee present, in town, I mean?

Mrs. Paine. He was at the house in Irving when labor began, and stayed at the house to take care of June and my two children who were sleeping while I took Marina to the hospital since I was the one who could drive.

Mr. Jenner. All right. The 20th is—when did you take her to the hospital?

Mrs. Paine. Around 9 o'clock in the evening.

Mr. Jenner. What day?

Mrs. Paine. Sunday, the 20th of October.

Mr. Jenner. And Lee Harvey Oswald was out there on that weekend on one of his regular visits?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. The first one since he had employment.

Representative Ford. Did you ever call either one of those numbers?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. We will get to it.

Mr. Jenner. You will forgive me because I would like to bring out the particular circumstances of the call.

Representative Ford. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did Lee go back into town on Monday to go to work?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; he did. I informed him in the morning that he had a baby girl. He was already asleep when I got back—no; that is not right. He was not asleep when I got back from the hospital, but he had gone to bed, and I stayed up and waited to call the hospital to hear what word there was. So, that I knew after he was already asleep that he had a baby girl. I told him in the morning before he went to work.

Mr. Jenner. You called him in Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. I am a little confused.

Mrs. Paine. No; I am sorry, I will begin again. I took her to the hospital and then I returned. I didn't feel I could stay. I thought I should get back to my children.

Mr. Jenner. This was Sunday night.

Mrs. Paine. Sunday night.

He went to bed, put Junie to bed. I stayed up and waited until what I considered a proper time and then called the hospital to hear what news there was. They had implied I could come and visit, too, but that would have been incorrect, and learned that he had a baby girl. I then went to bed and told him in the morning.

Mr. Jenner. You did not awaken him then?

40 Mrs. Paine. I did not awaken him. I thought about it and I decided if he was not interested in being awake I would tell him in the morning.

Mr. Jenner. And the morning was Monday?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Having learned that he was the father of a baby girl, I assume you told him that?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did he go to work that day?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did he return to Irving that evening?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. It was agreed when he left that he would return that evening.

Mr. Jenner. How did he—was he brought back to Irving that evening?

Mrs. Paine. I imagine Wesley brought him.

Mr. Jenner. At least you did not?

Mrs. Paine. I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Did he visit with Marina at the hospital that evening?

Mrs. Paine. When he arrived it was not decided whether he would go to the hospital or not. He thought not, and I thought he should, and encouraged him to go.

Mr. Jenner. Why did he think he ought not to go?

Mrs. Paine. I am uncertain about this. This thought crossed my mind that perhaps he thought they would find out he was working, but I had already told them he was working since I had been asked at the hospital when she was admitted and I mentioned this and it may have changed his mind about going, but this is conjecture on my part.

Mr. Jenner. In any event he did go?

Mrs. Paine. He did go. It was a good thing as he was the only one admitted, I was not either a father or grandmother so I was not permitted to get in.

Mr. Jenner. I see, and you waited until his visit was over and returned home with him?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Did he return to work the next morning?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; he did.

Mr. Jenner. When next did you hear from him?

Mrs. Paine. The following Friday he came out again.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know how he returned to Dallas that following morning, that is the 22d?

Mrs. Paine. Probably went with Wesley also.

Mr. Jenner. And he came out the following weekend, did he?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. That was his birthday.

Mr. Jenner. The 18th of October is his birthday. Did you have a party for him?

Mrs. Paine. We had a cake; yes, sir.

Mr. Jenner. Was that weekend uneventful?

Mrs. Paine. Well, Marina was already home.

Mr. Jenner. The baby was now home. She came home very quickly?

Mrs. Paine. Very quickly, a day and a half. She was home on Tuesday, the 16th, is that right—skipped a day, the 22d. So that his party was the week before, too. I was wrong then.

Mr. Jenner. When did he return, on Friday of that week?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, which was the 25th. I was mistaken.

Mr. Jenner. Did he call in each day in the interim?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And talk to Marina and to you?

Mrs. Paine. Well, to Marina.

Mr. Jenner. Inquire about the baby?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You overheard some of the conversation?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was anything said about the nature of his reaction to his position41 at the Texas School Book Depository on the second weekend when he came home?

Mrs. Paine. You are talking about the weekend of the 26th?

Mr. Jenner. That is right.

Mrs. Paine. No; I don't recall anything being said.

Mr. Jenner. Now, the next weekend was November 1st to 3d, which is Friday to Sunday, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Was he home on that weekend?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; he was.

Mr. Jenner. And did anything eventful occur on that weekend?

Mrs. Paine. Just a minute. What I was looking for, I wanted to find out whether I had taught a Russian lesson to my single student whom I saw some Saturday afternoon on that weekend, and I recall that I did not. So, the answer is no. I was there that Saturday. May I say if there was a weekend other than October 12 when he came on Saturday instead of Friday night, it was to have been that weekend?

Mr. Jenner. Which weekend?

Mrs. Paine. The weekend of the 1st to the 3d. That is my best recollection anyway.

Mr. Jenner. All right. But other than that possibility, there was nothing—it was a normal weekend at your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, following that weekend, which was the weekend of November 8 through 10, I think you have already described that weekend. That was the one on which you went to the Texas driver's application bureau, is it not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I recall him writing something on the early morning of Saturday—this "Dear Sirs" letter.

Mr. Jenner. Yes; this is the letter or draft of letter dealing with his reporting his visit to Mexico.

Mrs. Paine. Or stating that he had done such a thing, which I did not fully credit.

Mr. Jenner. Did he come the following weekend, that is the weekend of November 15 through 17?

Mrs. Paine. No; he did not.

Mr. Jenner. Why?

Mrs. Paine. Marina asked him not to.

Mr. Jenner. This was the weekend preceding the ill-fated assassination day?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Why did she ask him not to?

Mrs. Paine. She felt he had overstayed his welcome the previous weekend which had been 3 days, 9th, 10th, and 11th because he was off Veterans Day, the 11th of November, and she felt it would be simpler and more comfortable if he didn't come out.

Mr. Jenner. Had you had a discussion with her prior to that time on that subject?

Mrs. Paine. I had not suggested that to her.

Mr. Jenner. Did you overhear her tell him that?

Mrs. Paine. I did tell her I was planning a birthday party for my little girl, and I heard her tell Lee not to come out because I was having a birthday party. At some point in this same telephone conversation likely I told him he did not need to have a car but to go himself to the driver training station.

Mr. Jenner. You have described that event for us heretofore this afternoon.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Or this morning, I have forgotten which.

Mr. McCloy. May I interrupt here. I wonder whether or not you would want to take a rest now. We have been pretty arduous and let's take a little recess now.

(Short recess.)

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Reporter, would you read the last interchange or question and answer?

42 (The reporter read the question and answer.)

Mr. Jenner. Would you fix as best you can for us, the date or time that you first saw the wrapped blanket after you had returned to Irving? How long after that event did you see it to the best of your recollection?

Mrs. Paine. I have said it was the latter part of October. I don't think I can fix it more exactly.

Mr. Jenner. That would be almost or would be over a month afterwards? You returned on September 24?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall thinking, that is, that anything like that marks it as being particular noticeable. So that I am judging that I recall seeing it in October, somewhere towards the end.

Mr. Jenner. Had anything occurred at that time that now leads you to fix it at the latter part of October?

Mrs. Paine. No; there is no way that I have to fix it.

Mr. Jenner. Did you stumble over it or something?

Mr. McCloy. Could it have been as early as October 4 or the 7th when you first got the call from him when he first returned to Dallas?

Mrs. Paine. Conceivably, but I don't remember.

Mr. Dulles. Then you saw it on another occasion, how many days later was that?

Mrs. Paine. I can't fix it that near.

Mr. Dulles. It was several days later, was it, the time when it seemed to have been moved from position "X" to position "XX"?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes; that was later.

Mr. McCloy. Can you place it at all, can you place your recollection at all as having seen it in relation to the assassination? The date of the assassination? Was it 2 weeks before, 3 weeks before?

Mrs. Paine. I have inquired of myself for some weeks, was such a package in my station wagon when I arrived from New Orleans, and I cannot recall it, but I cannot be at all certain that there wasn't. I certainly didn't unload it. I never lifted such a package.

Mr. Jenner. Only you and Marina took things out of your station wagon at that time?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. And you did not——

Mrs. Paine. So I think I would have seen it.

Mr. Dulles. In your earlier testimony I think in reply to a question, you indicated that you and Marina had only talked about this after the assassination that afternoon.

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Dulles. If it is not out of order, I would like to get that into the testimony maybe at this date what took place between them at that time.

Mr. Jenner. On the 22d?

Mr. Dulles. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. I think it is best to leave it at the 22d.

Mr. Jenner. I was going to take her chronologically.

Mr. Dulles. Just so you recall that.

Mr. McCloy. But you can't recall having gone into the garage for any purpose and having stepped over this thing or around it at any time that you would associate with his return from New Orleans and Houston, if he went to Houston?

Mrs. Paine. My best recollection is that it was after, it was in October, therefore.

Mr. McCloy. But later than the 7th of October, you think?

Mrs. Paine. Later than that, yes. That is the best I can do.

Mr. McCloy. But well before the day of November 22?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I think I have oriented myself without having the reporter read and may I proceed, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. McCloy. Surely.

Mr. Jenner. We have now reached the weekend of the 15th, 16th, and 17th, which is the weekend that Lee Harvey Oswald did not return to your home.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

43 Mr. Jenner. You had just finished relating that Marina had told him not to come that particular weekend?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, was there an occasion during the course of that weekend when a phone call was made to Lee Harvey Oswald. I direct your attention particularly to Sunday evening, the 17th of November.

Mrs. Paine. Looking back on it, I thought that there was a call made to him by me on Monday the 18th, but I may be wrong about when it was made.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina call him this Sunday evening, November 17?

Mrs. Paine. No. There was only one call made at any one time to him, to my knowledge.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall an occasion when a call was made to him and you girls were unable to reach him when that call was made?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I will describe the call, and there is a dispute over what night it was.

Mr. Jenner. I would like your best recollection, first as to when it occurred. Was it during the weekend that he did not return to your home, the weekend immediately preceding the assassination day? Do you recall that Marina was lonesome and she wished you to make a call to Lee and you did so at her request?

Mrs. Paine. I recall certainly we had talked with Lee, on the telephone already that weekend because he called to say that he had been to attempt to get a driver's license permit.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. Whether he called that Saturday or whether he had called Sunday, I am not certain. Indeed, I am not certain but what he had called the very day, had already called and talked with Marina the very day that I then, at her request, tried to reach him at the number he had given me, with his number in my telephone book.

Junie was fooling with the telephone dial, and Marina said, "Let's call papa" and asked me——

Mr. Jenner. Was this at night?

Mrs. Paine. It was early evening, still light.

Mr. Jenner. Was it on a weekend?

Mrs. Paine. I would have said it was Monday but I am not certain of that.

Mr. Jenner. Was it——

Mrs. Paine. That is my best recollection, is that it was Monday.

Mr. Jenner. All we want is your best recollection. If it was a Monday, was it the Monday following the weekend that he did not come?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, certainly it was.

Mr. Jenner. I see. That is if it was a Monday, it was the Monday preceding November 22?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mr. Dulles. Could I ask one question?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. Dulles. Was there any evidence that the hint you gave, or that was given, to Lee Harvey not to come over this weekend caused him any annoyance? Was he put out by this, and did he indicate it?

Mrs. Paine. I made no such request of him. Marina talked with him on the phone.

Mr. Dulles. I realize that.

Mrs. Paine. And she made no mention of any irritation. Of course, I didn't hear what he said in response to her asking him not to come.

Mr. Dulles. And it didn't come out in any of these subsequent telephone messages which we are now discussing?

Mrs. Paine. No; I think I probably talked with him during that same telephone conversation to say that he could go without a car, and there was no irritation I noticed.

Mr. Dulles. Thank you.

Mr. Jenner. But it is your definite recollection that his failure to come on the weekend preceding the assassination was not at his doing but at the request of Marina, under the circumstances you have related?

44 Mrs. Paine. I am absolutely clear about that.

Mr. Jenner. You are absolutely clear about that. All right. Now, state, you began to state the circumstances of the telephone call. Would you in your own words and your own chronology proceed with that, please?

Mrs. Paine. Marina had said, "Let's call papa," in Russian and asked me to dial the number for her, knowing that I had a number that he had given us. I then dialed the number——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, did you dial the first or the second number?

Mrs. Paine. The second number.

Mr. Jenner. And that number is?

Mrs. Paine. WH 3-8993.

Mr. Jenner. When you dialed the number did someone answer?

Mrs. Paine. Someone answered and I said, "Is Lee Oswald there?" And the person replied, "There is no Lee Oswald here," or something to that effect.

Mr. Jenner. Would it refresh your recollection if he said, "There is nobody by that name here"?

Mrs. Paine. Or it may have been "nobody by that name" or "I don't know Lee Oswald." It could have been any of these.

Mr. Jenner. We want your best recollection.

Mrs. Paine. My best recollection is that he repeated the name.

Mr. Jenner. He repeated the name?

Mrs. Paine. But that is not a certain recollection.

Mr. Jenner. I take it then from the use of the pronoun that the person who answered was a man?

Mrs. Paine. Was a man.

Mr. Jenner. And if you will just sit back and relax a little. I would like to have you restate, if you now will, in your own words, what occurred?

You dialed the telephone, someone answered, a male voice?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say and what did you say?

Mrs. Paine. I said, "Is Lee Oswald there." He said, "There is no Lee Oswald living here." As best as I can recall. This is the substance of what he said. I said, "Is this a rooming house." He said "Yes." I said, "Is this WH 3-8993?" And he said "Yes." I thanked him and hung up.

Mr. Jenner. When you hung up then what did you next do or say?

Mrs. Paine. I said to Marina, "They don't know of a Lee Oswald at that number."

Mr. Jenner. What did she say?

Mrs. Paine. She didn't say anything.

Mr. Jenner. Just said nothing?

Mrs. Paine. She looked surprised.

Mr. Jenner. Did she evidence any surprise?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; she did, she looked surprised.

Mr. Dulles. You are quite sure you used the first name "Lee," did you, you did not say just "Mr. Oswald," or something of that kind?

Mrs. Paine. I would not say "Mr. Oswald." It is contrary to Quaker practice, and I don't normally do it that way.

Mr. Jenner. Contrary to Quaker practice?

Mrs. Paine. They seldom use "Mister."

Mr. Jenner. I see.

Mr. Dulles. And you wouldn't have said "Harvey Oswald," would you?

Mrs. Paine. I knew he had a middle name but only because I filled out forms in Parkland Hospital. It was never used with him.

Mr. Jenner. You do recall definitely that you asked for Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. I cannot be that definite. But I believe I asked for him. Oh, yes; I recall definitely what I asked. I cannot be definite about the man's reply, whether he included the full name in his reply.

Mr. Jenner. But you did?

Mrs. Paine. I asked for the full name, "Is Lee Oswald there."

Mr. Jenner. Did you report this incident to the FBI?

Mrs. Paine. I had no occasion to see them, and I did not think it important enough to call them after that until the 23d of November.

45 Mr. Jenner. Perhaps I may well have deferred that question until after I asked you the next.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did any event occur the following day with respect to this telephone call?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; Lee called——

Mr. Jenner. What was it?

Mrs. Paine. Lee called at the house and asked for Marina. I was in the kitchen where the phone is while Marina talked with him, she clearly was upset, and angry, and when she hung up——

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, did you overhear this conversation?

Mrs. Paine. I overheard the conversation but I can't tell you specific content.

Mr. Jenner. Please, Mrs. Paine, would you do your very best to recall what was said?

Mrs. Paine. I can tell you what she said to me which was immediately after, which is what I definitely recall.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you.

Mrs. Paine. She said immediately he didn't like her trying to reach him at the phone in his room at Dallas yesterday. That he was angry with her for having tried to reach him. That he said he was using a different name, and she said, "This isn't the first time I felt 22 fires," a Russian expression.

Mr. Jenner. This is something she said?

Mrs. Paine. She said this. This is not the first time, but it was the first time she had mentioned it to me.

Mr. Jenner. Give her exact words to me again.

Mrs. Paine. When she felt 22 fires.

Mr. Jenner. That is the expression she used?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you understand what she meant or, if not, did you ask for an explanation?

Mrs. Paine. I did not ask for an explanation. I judged she meant, she disagreed with his using a different name, but didn't feel like, empowered to make him do otherwise or even perhaps ask to as a wife.

Mr. Dulles. How long a conversation was this. Was it——

Mrs. Paine. Fairly short.

Mr. Dulles. Fairly short.

Mrs. Paine. That is my recollection.

Representative Ford. What day of the month and what day of the week was this?

Mrs. Paine. Well, reconstructing it, I thought they succeeded each other, the original call to the WH number on Monday and his call back on Tuesday.

Representative Ford. When he called back it was late in the afternoon or early evening?

Mrs. Paine. It was the normal time for him to call back, early evening, around 5:30.

Mr. Jenner. You have a definite impression she was angry when she hung up?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was she abrupt in her hanging up. Did she hang up on him?

Mrs. Paine. No; she was angry, she was upset.

Mr. Jenner. And her explanation of her being upset was that he used the assumed name?

Mrs. Paine. Well, she didn't explain it as such, but she said he had used it.

Mr. Jenner. He was angry with her because you had made the call?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Or she had made it through you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did any further discussion take place between you and Marina on that subject?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. The following day he did not call at the usual time.

Mr. Jenner. That would be the following day, the 20th?

Mrs. Paine. I believe that was a Wednesday and that is how I slipped a day.

Mr. Jenner. He didn't call at all on the succeeding day?

46 Mrs. Paine. He didn't call at all, and she said to me as the time for normally calling passed, "He thinks he is punishing me."

Mr. Jenner. For what?

Mrs. Paine. For having been a bad wife, I would judge, for having done something he didn't want her to do, the objection.

Mr. Jenner. To wit, the telephone call about which you have told us?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you and Marina go through a normal day that day, or was there any other subject of discussion with respect to Lee Oswald on that day?

Mrs. Paine. Nothing I would specifically recall; no.

Mr. Jenner. This was the 20th of November, a Wednesday?

Mrs. Paine. To the best of my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Let's proceed with the 21st. Did anything occur on the 21st with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald, that is a Thursday?

Mrs. Paine. I arrived home from grocery shopping around 5:30, and he was on the front lawn. I was surprised to see him.

Mr. Jenner. You had no advance notice?

Mrs. Paine. I had no advance notice and he had never before come without asking whether he could.

Mr. Jenner. Never before had he come to your home in that form without asking your permission to come?

Mrs. Paine. Without asking permission; that is right.

Mr. Jenner. And he was out on the lawn as you drove up, on your lawn?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. Playing with June and talking with Marina, who was also out on the lawn.

Mr. Jenner. And you were, of course, surprised to see him?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you park your car in the driveway as usual?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you walk over to speak with him?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, got out, very likely picked some groceries out of the car and he very likely picked some up too, and this is I judge what may have happened.

Mr. Jenner. Tell the Commission what was said between you and Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Between me and Lee Oswald?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; on that occasion.

Mrs. Paine. That is not what I recall. I recall talking with Marina on the side.

Mr. Jenner. First. Didn't you greet him?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I greeted him.

Mr. Jenner. And then what did you do, walk in the house?

Mrs. Paine. As we were walking in the house, and he must have preceded because Marina and I spoke in private to one another, she apologized.

Mr. Jenner. Was Marina out on the lawn also?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, sir. She apologized for his having come without permission and I said that was all right, and we said either then or later—I recall exchanging our opinion that this was a way of making up the quarrel or as close as he could come to an apology for the fight on the telephone, that his coming related to that, rather than anything else.

Mr. Jenner. That was her reaction to his showing up uninvited and unexpectedly on that particular afternoon, was it?

Mrs. Paine. Well, it was rather my own, too.

Mr. Jenner. And it was your own?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And because of this incident of the telephone call and your not being able to reach him, and the subsequent talk between Lee and Marina in which there had been some anger expressed, you girls reached the conclusion the afternoon of November 21 that he was home just to see if he could make up with Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do I fairly state it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

47 Mr. Jenner. What did you do that evening? Did you have occasion to note what he did?

Mrs. Paine. We had dinner as usual, and then I sort of bathed my children, putting them to bed and reading them a story, which put me in one part of the house. When that was done I realized he had already gone to bed, this being now about 9 o'clock. I went out to the garage to paint some children's blocks, and worked in the garage for half an hour or so. I noticed when I went out that the light was on.

Mr. Jenner. The light was on in the garage?

Mrs. Paine. The light was on in the garage.

Mr. Jenner. Was this unusual?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, it was unusual for it to be on; yes. I realized that I felt Lee, since Marina had also been busy with her children, had gone out to the garage, perhaps worked out there or gotten something. Most of their clothing was still out there, all of their winter things. They were getting things out from time to time, warmer things for the cold weather, so it was not at all remarkable that he went to the garage, but I thought it careless of him to have left the light on. I finished my work and then turned off the light and left the garage.

Mr. Jenner. Have you completed that now?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You stated that he was in the garage, how did you know he was in the garage?

Mr. McCloy. She didn't state that.

Mrs. Paine. I didn't state it absolutely. I guessed it was he rather than she. She was busy with the children and the light had been on and I know I didn't leave the light on.

Mr. Jenner. Then, I would ask you directly, did you see him in the garage at anytime from the time you first saw him on the lawn until he retired for the night?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Until you retired for the night?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Was he out on the lawn after dinner or supper?

Mrs. Paine. I don't believe so.

Mr. Jenner. Did you hear any activity out in the garage on that evening?

Mrs. Paine. No; I did not.

Mr. Jenner. Any persons moving about?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. The only thing that arrested your attention was the fact that you discovered the light on in the garage?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Before you retired?

Representative Ford. You discovered that when you went out to work there?

Mrs. Paine. When I went out to work there.

Mr. McCloy. When you went out there, did you notice the blanket?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall specifically seeing the blanket. I certainly recall on the afternoon of the 22d where it had been.

Mr. Dulles. Was there any evidence of any quarreling or any harsh words between Lee Harvey and Marina that evening that you know of?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Was there a coolness between them?

Mrs. Paine. He went to bed very early, she stayed up and talked with me some, but there was no coolness that I noticed. He was quite friendly on the lawn as we——

Mr. Jenner. I mean coolness between himself and—between Lee and Marina.

Mrs. Paine. I didn't notice any such coolness. Rather, they seemed warm, like a couple making up a small spat, I should interject one thing here, too, that I recall as I entered the house and Lee had just come in, I said to him, "Our President is coming to town."

And he said, "Ah, yes," and walked on into the kitchen, which was a common48 reply from him on anything. I was just excited about this happening, and there was his response. Nothing more was said about it.

Mr. Dulles. I didn't quite catch his answer.

Mrs. Paine. "Ah, yes," a very common answer.

Mr. Jenner. He gave no more than that laconic answer?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Had there been any discussion between you and Marina that the President was coming into town the next day?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did she say anything on that subject in the presence of Lee that evening?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall anything of that sort.

Mr. Jenner. What time did you have dinner that evening?

Mrs. Paine. 6 or 6:30, I would guess.

Mr. Jenner. And calling on your recollection, Mrs. Paine, following dinner do you remember any occasion that evening when Lee was out of the house and you didn't see him around the house, and you were conscious of the fact he was not in the house?

Mrs. Paine. I was not at anytime of the opinion that he was out of the house, conscious of it.

Mr. Jenner. You have no recollection of his being out of the house anytime that evening?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Dulles. Did he do any reading that evening—books, papers, anything?

Mrs. Paine. Not to my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. What were you doing that evening?

Mrs. Paine. I have tried already to describe that after dinner, and probably after some dishes were done.

Mr. Jenner. Who did the dishes?

Mrs. Paine. Very likely Marina, it depended on who made the meal. I normally cooked the meal and then she did the dishes or we reversed occasionally. But I have tried to say I was very likely involved in the back bedroom and in the bathroom giving the children a bath, getting them in their pajamas and reading a story for as much as an hour.

Mr. Jenner. That would take as much as an hour?

Mrs. Paine. That takes as much as an hour.

Mr. Jenner. By this time we are up to approximately 7:30 or 8 o'clock, are we?

Mrs. Paine. Oh no; we are up to nearly 9 o'clock by now. We eat from 6:30 to after 7, do some dishes, brings it up toward 8, and then put the children to bed.

Mr. Jenner. When you had had your children put to bed and came out of their room, was Lee, had he then by that time retired?

Mrs. Paine. That is my recollection.

Mr. Dulles. Did you have any words with Marina about the light in the garage? Was that a subject of conversation between you?

Mrs. Paine. No; we didn't discuss it.

Mr. Dulles. You didn't mention it to her?

Mrs. Paine. No; I didn't discuss it.

Representative Ford. Did he ever help in the kitchen at all, in any way whatsoever?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I have said he once did dishes in New Orleans, but that is about all I recall that he did.

Representative Ford. But in Dallas, in your home, he never volunteered?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. McCloy. Marina did help around the house?

Mrs. Paine. She helped a great deal.

Mr. McCloy. She was a good helper?

Mrs. Paine. She is a hard worker.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us, the time you came out of the bedroom and put your children to bed when you noticed the light in the garage; fix as well as you can the time of evening.

49 Mrs. Paine. I think it was about 9 o'clock.

Mr. Jenner. That is when you noticed the light in the garage, around 9 o'clock after you put your children to bed, and at that time Lee was already retired?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Marina was still up?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. How long did she remain up?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall that evening from that point on much like any others, with the two of us up, we probably folded some diapers, laundry. Some evening close to that time, either that evening or the one before, we discussed plans for Christmas.

Mr. Jenner. You and Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. But it was probably the evening before. I was thinking about making a playhouse for the children.

Mr. Jenner. Would you describe Lee's attire when you first saw him on the lawn when you returned that evening?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall it.

Mr. Jenner. You have no recollection of that? Did he bring—do you know whether he brought anything with him in the way of paper or wrapper or luggage or this sticky tape, anything of that nature?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall seeing anything of that nature.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see any paper, wrapping paper, of the character that you have identified around your home that evening?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. McCloy. Can't you recall a little more clearly how he generally was dressed? Did he have a coat on such as I have got on now, or did he have——

Mrs. Paine. I never saw him in a suit jacket.

Mr. McCloy. Suit jacket? What was his normal outer wear apparel?

Mrs. Paine. His normal attire was T-shirt, cotton slacks, sometimes the T-shirt covered by a shirt, flannel or cotton shirt.

Mr. McCloy. Do you recall whether he had that type of shirt over his T-shirt that night?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. McCloy. You don't recall?

Mr. Jenner. Did he have any kind of a shirt other than a T-shirt on him when you saw him?

Mrs. Paine. I don't really remember.

Mr. Jenner. I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if despite the fact I haven't reached the next day, if we might excuse Mrs. Paine? She did tell me she had an appointment at 5:30 this evening, and I would like to have her think over more so she can be refreshed in the morning as to this particular evening. And, Mrs. Paine, I would have you trace the first thing in the morning as best as you can recall Lee Harvey Oswald's movements that evening and where he was, to the best that you are able to recall. Would you try to do that for us?

Mrs. Paine. I think I probably have done the best I can, but I will do it again if you like.

Mr. Jenner. May we have permission to adjourn, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. McCloy. Very well.

Mr. Dulles. Could I ask just one question? With regard to this sketch of the house, I was interested to know where you would see the light in the garage. Was it from out here?

Mrs. Paine. This is a doorway into the garage from the kitchen area.

Mr. Dulles. And you saw that light from the kitchen area?

Mrs. Paine. I think I was probably on my way to the garage anyway, opened the door, there was the light on.

Mr. Dulles. I see. There are no windows or anything. The door was closed and the light would not be visible if you hadn't gone into it?

Mrs. Paine. It would be visible if it was dark in here.

Mr. Dulles. I understand. Through the door.

Representative Ford. And you spent about a half hour in the garage painting some blocks?

50 Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. What part of the garage——

Mrs. Paine. Close to the doorway here, the entrance, this entrance.

Representative Ford. The entrance going into the——

Mrs. Paine. The doorway between the garage and the kitchen-dining area. Right here.

Representative Ford. You didn't move around the garage?

Mrs. Paine. I moved around enough to get some shellac and brush and make a place, a block is this big, to paint.

Representative Ford. Where do you recollect, if you do, the blanket was at this time?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recollect. It was the next day——

Representative Ford. It was the forepart of the garage on the left-hand side?

Mrs. Paine. Beyond.

Mr. McCloy. Does anyone have any further questions?

Mr. Jenner. No questions, Mr. Chairman.

Representative Ford has directed the attention of the witness to the document which is now Exhibit No. 430, and when we reconvene in the morning I will qualify the exhibit.

Mr. McCloy. Is that all?

We will reconvene at 9 a.m., tomorrow.

(Whereupon, at 5:30 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)

Friday, March 20, 1964
TESTIMONY OF RUTH HYDE PAINE RESUMED

The President's Commission met at 9:05 a.m. on Friday, March 20, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman Cooper, Representative Gerald R. Ford, and John J. McCloy, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel; and Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel.

Senator Cooper. Mrs. Paine, you, I think, yesterday affirmed, made affirmation as to the truthfulness of your testimony?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, I did.

Senator Cooper. You are still under that affirmation?

Mrs. Paine. I understand that I am under that affirmation.

Mr. Jenner. May I proceed?

Thank you. Mrs. Paine, just to put you at ease this morning, Mr. Chairman, may I qualify some documents?

The Chairman. Good morning, gentlemen and ladies. How are you, Mrs. Paine? I am glad to see you this morning.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, I show you Commission Exhibit No. 425 which you produced and which you testified was the original of a letter of October 14, 1963, to your mother, part of which you read at large in the record. Is that document in your handwriting entirely?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. You testified it is a letter from you to your mother?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Did you dispatch the letter?

Mrs. Paine. I did.

51 Mr. Jenner. In view of that fact would you explain for the record how you came into possession of the letter since you sent it to your mother?

Mrs. Paine. She gave it to me a few days ago.

Mr. Jenner. Is the document now in the same condition it was when you mailed it to your mother?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is. You have the first page of two. The other page not being relative to this case.

Mr. Jenner. In other words, that there be no question about it, do you have the other page?

Mrs. Paine. I have the other page.

Mr. Jenner. May I have it?

Mrs. Paine. The other page, of course, contains my signature.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. May the record be amended to show that Commission Exhibit No. ——.

Mrs. Paine. I'd rather not have that part of it——

Mr. Jenner. It is not going into the record, Mrs. Paine. Just be patient. Commission Exhibit 425 consists of two pages, that is two sheets. The pages are numbered from one through four. Would you look at the page numbered 4? There is a signature appearing at the bottom of it. Is that your signature?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, may I postpone the offer of this document in evidence until I do read the second page, which the witness has now produced. You see, Mrs. Paine, that it may be important to the Commission to have the entire letter which would indicate the context in which the statements that are relevant were made.

You testified yesterday with regard to the draft of what appeared to be a letter that Mr. Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald, was to send. It was thought he might send it to someone. I hand you a picture of a letter in longhand which has been identified as Commission Exhibit 103. Would you look at that please? Do you recognize that handwriting?

Mrs. Paine. No. This is the only time I saw—this is the only handwriting of his I have seen.

Mr. Jenner. You can't identify the document as such, that is, are you familiar enough with his handwriting——

Mrs. Paine. To know that this is his handwriting?

Mr. Jenner. To identify whether that is or is not his handwriting.

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever seen that Document before?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. When did you first see it?

Mrs. Paine. I first saw that on Saturday, the 9th of November. I don't believe I looked to see what it said until the morning of the 10th.

Mr. Jenner. I see. Now, do you recognize it, however, as a picture of the document that you did see on the 9th of November, or did you say 10th?

Mrs. Paine. I'll say 10th, yes; it is that document.

Senator Cooper. What is the answer?

Mrs. Paine. It is that document.

Mr. Jenner. And I take it from your testimony that after you had seen the original of this document, this document happens to be a photo, you saw a typed transcript of this document or substantially this document?

Mrs. Paine. I never saw a typed transcript.

Mr. Jenner. You did not?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, you testified yesterday that Lee Harvey Oswald asked you if he could use your typewriter?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And he did proceed to use the typewriter to type a letter or at least some document?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And that you saw a document folded in half and one portion of it arrested your attention?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; that is correct.

52 Mr. Jenner. Was the document that arrested your attention the typed document or was it the document that is before you?

Mrs. Paine. I never saw the typed document. It was the document that is before me, which I take to be a rough draft of what he typed.

Mr. Jenner. And you said you made a duplicate of the document. Did you make a duplicate in longhand or on your typewriter?

Mrs. Paine. I made a duplicate in longhand.

Mr. Jenner. But you do have a present recollection that this, Commission Exhibit No. 103 for identification, is the document which you saw in your home on your desk secretary?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 103 the document—oh, it is already in evidence. I withdraw that offer.

Senator Cooper. It is in evidence.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Redlich informs me, Mr. Chairman, that the document has already been admitted in evidence.

Now, would you follow me as I go through these? There has been marked as Commission's Exhibit 430, which is the mark at the moment for identification, what purports to be a floor plan outline of the Paine home at 2515 Fifth Street, Irving, Tex., and the witness made reference to that yesterday close to the close of her testimony yesterday afternoon. Directing your attention to that exhibit, is that an accurate floor plan outline of your home at 2515 Fifth Street, Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. Paine. It is an approximately accurate floor plan.

Mr. Jenner. And is it properly entitled, that is, are the rooms and sections of the home properly entitled?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; they are.

Mr. Jenner. And does it accurately reflect the door openings, the hallways in your home and the garage?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is perfectly accurate.

Mr. Jenner. I think one thing only needs some explanation. In the upper left-hand corner of the floor plan outline, there is a square space which has no lettering to identify that space. It is the area immediately to the left of the—of what is designated as kitchen-dining area.

Mrs. Paine. Yes. That space is all one room with that which is designated kitchen-dining area. That is one large room.

Mr. Jenner. I see. So that even though on the floor plan outline the words "kitchen-dining area" appear in the right half of that space, that lettering and wording is to apply to all the space?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And the driveway about which you testified is that portion of the ground outline which has the circle with the figure "8" and an arrow, is that right?

Mrs. Paine. That is the driveway.

Mr. Jenner. And the driveway is where the car was parked because the garage always had too many things in it to get your car in?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Referring to Commission Exhibit No. 431 for identification, is that a front view of your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Were you present when the picture was taken?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I was.

Mr. Jenner. Commission Exhibit 432, is that a rear view of your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Were you present when that was taken?

Mrs. Paine. Probably. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. But that is an accurate depiction?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Of the rear of your home?

Mrs. Paine. It is certainly accurate.

Mr. Jenner. And showing some of your yard. The next Exhibit 433, is that a view of the east side of your home?

53 Mrs. Paine. East and north; yes.

Mr. Jenner. And were you present when that was taken?

Mrs. Paine. I wouldn't know.

Mr. Jenner. But it is an accurate depiction of that area of your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Commission Exhibit 434, is that a view of the west side of your home?

Mrs. Paine. West and north.

Mr. Jenner. Were you present when that was taken?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Despite that, is it accurate?

Mrs. Paine. It is perfectly accurate.

Mr. Jenner. Now, is Commission Exhibit 435 a view inside your home looking through the door leading to the garage from your kitchen?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. And were you present when that was taken?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I was.

Mr. Jenner. And is it accurate?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Commission Exhibit 436, is that a picture of the doorway area leading to the backyard of your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Were you present when that was taken?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I was.

Mr. Jenner. Is it accurate?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Commission Exhibit 437, is that the kitchen area in your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Now, were you present when that was taken?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I was.

Mr. Jenner. And is it accurate?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Returning now to the floor plan exhibit, Commission Exhibit 430, is Commission Exhibit 437, which is the kitchen area in your home, that portion of Commission Exhibit 430 which is lettered "kitchen-dining area."

Mrs. Paine. It is a picture of that portion.

Mr. Jenner. Of that portion, rather than the portion to the left which is unlettered?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. The garage interior we identified yesterday. By the way, have you ever been in the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. Have you been there often enough to identify a floor plan and pictures of the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I have been there perhaps once or twice.

Mr. McCloy. Do you intend to call Mrs. Randle?

Mr. Jenner. Unfortunately Mrs. Randle has already testified and Mr. Ball when he questioned her did not have this exhibit. It wasn't in existence.

I show you a page marked Commission Exhibit No. 441 entitled "Randle Home, 2439 West Fifth Street, Irving, Tex.," purporting to be a floor plan outline of the Randle home. You have been in the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. On several occasions?

Mrs. Paine. Two or three; yes.

Mr. Jenner. And are you familiar with the general area of the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Surrounding the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. Indeed; I am.

Mr. Jenner. And looking at Commission Exhibit 441, is that an accurate floor plan outline and general community outline of the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I would say it is.

54 Mr. Jenner. I show you Commission Exhibit 442. Is that an accurate and true and correct photograph showing the corner view of the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. Exhibit 443, is that an accurate photograph of a portion of the kitchen portion, the front of the kitchen window of the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. I believe so.

Mr. Jenner. Does your recollection serve you——

Mrs. Paine. I am trying to see if I know which is west and north there and I am not certain.

Mr. Jenner. Let us return to the floor plan.

Mrs. Paine. This would be, yes, that is what I thought. This is looking then west.

Mr. Jenner. You have now oriented yourself. And is it an accurate picture of the front of the kitchen?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Which exhibit are you referring to now?

Mr. Jenner. The front of the Randle home No. 443. The next number, 444, is that an accurate photograph of the area of the Randle home showing a view from the field from the Randle's kitchen window?

Mrs. Paine. That is accurate.

Mr. Jenner. Across the street?

Mrs. Paine. Correct.

Mr. Jenner. Commission Exhibit 445, is that an accurate photograph of the kitchen of the Randle home looking at the direction of the carport from the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. That is an accurate picture showing the door opening to the carport; yes.

Mr. Jenner. And the kitchen portion of the Randle home facing on the carport?

Mrs. Paine. Correct.

Mr. Jenner. Have you ever been in the carport area of the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I have.

Mr. Jenner. And is Commission Exhibit 446 a view of a portion of the carport area of the Randle home?

Mrs. Paine. It looks like it.

Mr. Jenner. Now 447 is a photograph taken from the street looking toward the Randle home, is that right?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And it is the west side of the Randle house?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Showing that carport area?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And it is accurate, isn't it?

Mrs. Paine. It is accurate.

Mr. Jenner. Commission Exhibit 438, is that an accurate photograph of the area of Irving Street showing not only the Randle house but also your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; that is accurate.

Mr. Jenner. And is Commission Exhibit 448——

Senator Cooper. What was the number of the photograph which you just referred to?

Mr. Jenner. 438. 438 is view looking northeast showing the Paine home at the left and the Randle home at the far right. Directing your attention to Commission Exhibit 448, is that an accurate photograph showing a view of the Randle home looking West Fifth Street?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is Commission Exhibit 438 an accurate photograph showing a view looking west along Fifth Street to your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it is.

Mr. Jenner. And is the arrow that appears on that photograph—does that point to your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is Commission Exhibit No. 450, which I now show you, an accurate55 photograph of the intersection of Westbrook Drive and West Fifth Street viewed from immediately outside the Randle kitchen window?

Mrs. Paine. It looks to be exactly that.

Mr. Jenner. I now show you Commission Exhibit No. 440 entitled "Paine and Randle homes, Irving, Tex." which purports to be, and I believe is, a scale drawing of the area in Irving, Tex., along West Fifth Street and Westbrook Drive, in which your home at 2515 West Fifth Street is shown in outline, and the location and form of the Randle home down the street and on the corner is likewise shown.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that accurate?

Mrs. Paine. That is accurate.

Senator Cooper. Are you going to make part of the record these exhibits which she has identified?

Mr. Jenner. Yes; I am about to offer these and I would ask Mr. Redlich if he would assemble the exhibit numbers so I can make the offer, please.

Mrs. Paine, now that you have had a rest over night, we would like to return to the late afternoon and the evening of November 21. Did Lee Harvey Oswald come to Irving, Tex., at anytime that day?

Mrs. Paine. He came some time shortly before 5:30 in the evening on the 21st.

Mr. Jenner. Had either you or Marina, I limit it to you first, had you had any notice or intimation whatsoever that Lee Harvey Oswald would appear on that day?

Mrs. Paine. Absolutely none.

Mr. Jenner. And his appearance was a complete surprise to you?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Did anything occur during the day or during that week up to the time that you saw Lee Harvey Oswald that afternoon that impressed you or led you to believe that Marina had any notion whatsoever that her husband would or might appear at your home on that day?

Mrs. Paine. Nothing. I rather had the contrary impressions.

Mr. Jenner. Now, what was your first notice, what was the circumstances that brought your attention to the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was in Irving, Tex., that afternoon.

Mrs. Paine. I arrived home from the grocery store in my car and saw he was on the front lawn at my house.

Mr. Jenner. You had had no word whatsoever from anybody prior to that moment?

Mrs. Paine. No word whatsoever.

Mr. Jenner. Now where was he? And we may use the exhibits we have just identified. Mr. Chairman, I offer in evidence the photographs and the floor plans and the area outlines the witness has just identified and testified about as they are Commission Exhibit Nos. 429 through 448 both inclusive, and 450 and 452.

Senator Cooper. The exhibits offered will be received in evidence.

(Commission Exhibits Nos. 429 through 448 both inclusive, and 450 and 452 were received in evidence.)

The Chairman. Senator Cooper, at this time I am obliged to leave for our all-day conference on Friday at the Supreme Court, and I may be back later in the day, but if I don't, you continue, of course.

Senator Cooper. I will this morning. If I can't be here this afternoon, whom do you want to preside?

The Chairman. Congressman Ford, would you be here this afternoon at all?

Representative Ford. Unfortunately Mr. McCloy and I have to go to a conference out of town.

The Chairman. You are both going out of town, aren't you?

Senator Cooper. I can go and come back if it is necessary.

The Chairman. I will try to be here myself. Will Mr. Dulles be here?

Mr. McCloy. He is out of town.

The Chairman. If you should not finish, Mr. Jenner, will you phone me at the Court and I will try to suspend my own conference over there and come over.

56 Senator Cooper. I will be here anyway all morning and will try to come back this afternoon.

The Chairman. Thank you very much. Mrs. Paine, I want to thank you for coming and for being so patient with our long questioning.

Mrs. Paine. I am glad to do what I can.

The Chairman. You know that it is necessary.

Mrs. Paine. Indeed.

The Chairman. Thank you very much.

Mr. Jenner. You might use the ruler, and I have set the floor plan and the area plan of your home, Mrs. Paine, Exhibit 430, on the blackboard. As you testify, it might be helpful to point to those areas. Now in which direction were you coming?

Mrs. Paine. I was coming from the east.

Mr. Jenner. From the east?

Mrs. Paine. Along West Fifth.

Mr. Jenner. You were going west. Your home is on the right-hand side.

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. When did you first sight, where were you when you first saw Lee in your courtyard?

Mrs. Paine. Just past the corner of Westbrook and Fifth.

Mr. Jenner. That area is open from that point to your home; is it?

Mrs. Paine. The area of the front yard; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Your home is well set back from the street or sidewalk?

Mrs. Paine. Moderately set back.

Mr. Jenner. What would you judge that distance to be?

Mrs. Paine. Two car lengths from the opening of the garage to the sidewalk.

Mr. Jenner. Now where was Lee Oswald when you first saw him?

Mrs. Paine. He was on the grass just to the east of the driveway.

Mr. Jenner. Near the driveway just to the east, but he was out in front of your home?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. What did you do then? You proceeded down the street?

Mrs. Paine. I parked my car, yes; parked my car in its usual position in the driveway.

Mr. Jenner. In your driveway?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Up close to the garage opening?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And that left you then, you were on the left side or the driving side of your automobile. You got out, did you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Which way? Did you get out to your left or did you swing across the seat and get out at the right hand door?

Mrs. Paine. I got out on the driver's side, on the left.

Mr. Jenner. Then what did you do? First tell us what you did. Did you go into your home directly? Did you walk around?

Mrs. Paine. No. I greeted Lee and Marina, who were both on the front lawn.

Mr. Jenner. Was their daughter June out in front as well?

Mrs. Paine. Their daughter June was out in front. It was warm. Lee was playing with June.

Mr. Jenner. How was he attired?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. Jenner. You said that he normally wore a T-shirt.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was he in a T-shirt or shirt?

Mrs. Paine. I'd be fairly certain he didn't have a jacket on, but that whatever it was was tucked in.

Mr. Jenner. Do you remember the color of his trousers?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Now at that point you were surprised to see him?

Mrs. Paine. I was.

Mr. Jenner. What did you say to him?

57 Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. But you do recall greeting him?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You don't recall that you evidenced any surprise that he was there?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, I think I did.

Mr. Jenner. Had there ever been an occasion prior thereto that he had appeared at your home without prior notice to you and permission from you for him to appear?

Mrs. Paine. There had been no such occasion. He had always asked permission prior to coming.

Mr. Jenner. And there never had been an exception to that up to this moment?

Mrs. Paine. No exception.

Mr. Jenner. May we have the time again? You say it was late in the afternoon, but can you fix the time a little more?

Mrs. Paine. It was getting on toward 5:30.

Mr. Jenner. Did you tarry and talk with Lee and Marina?

Mrs. Paine. I remember only that Marina and I were still on the grass at the entryway to the house when she spoke of her embarrassment to me in an aside, that is to say, not in Lee's hearing, that she was sorry he hadn't called ahead and asked if that was all right. And I said "Why, that is all right."

Mr. Jenner. Nothing was said by her as to why he had come out?

Mrs. Paine. Nothing.

Mr. Jenner. And nothing was——

Mrs. Paine. She was clearly surprised also.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. You made no inquiry of her I take it then of any explanation made by Lee Oswald as to why he had come out unannounced and unexpectedly?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. At least not as of that moment.

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Now when you had your aside with Marina, where was Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. On the grass near the tree playing with June as closely as I can remember.

Mr. Jenner. How long did you and Marina remain in conversation at that place, position?

Mrs. Paine. Less than a minute.

Mr. Jenner. Then what did you do?

Mrs. Paine. I can only reconstruct it.

Mr. Jenner. That is all I am asking you to do.

Mrs. Paine. I must have gotten groceries from the car.

Mr. Jenner. You mean reconstruct in the sense of rationalizing?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. I wish you would give me first your recollection.

Mrs. Paine. I am certain of going into the house, and I recall standing just inside the doorway.

Mr. Jenner. Of your home?

Mrs. Paine. Of my home.

Mr. Jenner. But inside the home?

Mrs. Paine. But inside now.

Mr. Jenner. Which way were you facing when you were standing inside the doorway?

Mrs. Paine. I was facing partly toward the door, toward the loud speaker. I was facing this way.

Mr. Jenner. Why were you facing outwardly?

Mrs. Paine. I believe I turned. I was coming in. I believe I turned to speak to Lee as he came in.

Mr. Jenner. Lee followed you in the house?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And did Marina come in?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall whether she was already in or still out.

58 Mr. Jenner. But you do have a recollection that Lee followed you into your home.

Mrs. Paine. And I recall very clearly the position I was in in the room and the position he was in.

Mr. Jenner. Tell us.

Mrs. Paine. I was turned part way toward the door. He was coming in, having just entered the door and in front of this loud speaker to which I refer.

Mr. Jenner. What was the loud speaker?

Mrs. Paine. The loud speaker is part of the Hi-Fi set. It stands—it is a big thing.

Mr. Jenner. Did something occur at that moment?

Mrs. Paine. And it was at that time that I said to him "Our President is coming to town." I believe I said it in Russian, our President is coming to town in Russian.

Mr. Jenner. And you gave us his response yesterday but you might do it again.

Mrs. Paine. He said "Uh, yeah" and brushed on by me, walked on past.

Mr. Jenner. Did he have an attitude of indifference?

Mrs. Paine. It was clearly both indifference and not wanting to go on and talk, because he moved away from me on into the kitchen.

Mr. Jenner. He went into your kitchen. What did you do?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. Jenner. We are anxious to follow minute by minute, to the extent possible, all the movements of which you had any knowledge of Lee Oswald on this late afternoon and throughout the evening. Did Lee Oswald remain in your presence right at this time when you entered the house? If so, how long? You had this short conversation. Did he leave your presence then and go to some other part of your home?

Mrs. Paine. He might have gone to some other part of the home. He didn't leave the house to my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. I didn't mean to imply that, only whether he remained in the general area in which you were in your home?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Did he pass from your sight?

Mrs. Paine. Probably.

Mr. Jenner. Before you guess about it, give us your best recollection.

Senator Cooper. Tell what you remember.

Mr. McCloy. Yes; just in your own words tell us what your best recollection of this afternoon was without second to second sequence.

Mrs. Paine. Clearly just having come from the grocery store I put the bags down in the kitchen and unpacked them, put them away, started supper.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any sense that Lee Oswald was in and about the inside of the house while you were doing this?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection that he did not go out into the yard during this period?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall. If he did, it would have been the back. It would have been unusual for him to go in the front yard.

Mr. Jenner. Now you were preparing your dinner in your kitchen, were you not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And does the entrance to your garage—is there an entrance to your garage opening from your kitchen into the garage?

Mrs. Paine. There is an entrance to the garage from the kitchen; yes.

Mr. Jenner. And one of the exhibits we qualified this morning is a picture of that area of your home, is it not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Your answer was yes?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. At anytime while you were preparing dinner was Lee Oswald in the garage?

Mrs. Paine. No.

59 Mr. Jenner. And you were aware of that fact, were you?

Mrs. Paine. That is my best recollection that he was not in the garage while I was preparing dinner.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know where he was while you were preparing dinner?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have occasion to look into your garage area at anytime during the period you were preparing dinner?

Mrs. Paine. Not that I recall.

Mr. Jenner. Where was Marina during the period you were preparing dinner?

Mrs. Paine. I'd have to guess.

Senator Cooper. Just tell what you know.

Mr. Jenner. Tell what you know first.

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection with respect to whether she was inside the house or outside the house?

Mrs. Paine. I recall that she was inside the house.

Mr. Jenner. And where was the child June with respect to whether she was inside or outside the house?

Mrs. Paine. She was inside.

Mr. Jenner. Having located Marina and the Oswald daughter inside your home, does that refresh your recollection as to whether Lee was also inside the house?

Mrs. Paine. As far as I remember, he was also inside the house.

Mr. Jenner. Was he playing with his daughter?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. How long did it take you to prepare dinner?

Mrs. Paine. Probably half an hour.

Mr. Jenner. I am unaware of the shades of evening and night in Texas. By the time you had completed dinner had night fallen or was it still light?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. What time does nightfall come in Texas in November, late November?

Mrs. Paine. I would say between 7 and 7:30.

Mr. Jenner. I shouldn't have been as broad as I was. I meant to locate it in Irving, Tex., rather than Texas generally. About 7:30?

Mrs. Paine. Between 7 and 7:30. I don't know exactly.

Mr. Jenner. When did you sit down for dinner?

Mrs. Paine. I suppose around 6:30.

Mr. Jenner. Is that your best recollection?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. Jenner. Was it still light outside, natural light?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did Lee Oswald join you for dinner?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; he did.

Mr. Jenner. And how long did dinner take?

Mrs. Paine. Perhaps half an hour.

Mr. Jenner. Did he remain in your presence during all of the dinner period?

Mrs. Paine. Either there or in the living room.

Mr. Jenner. At anytime during the dinner period, did Lee Oswald leave your home?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You have a firm recollection of that?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. At anytime during that period did Lee Oswald enter the garage area?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Not to my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Did you?

60 Mrs. Paine. The deepfreeze is in the garage. I don't recall having gone, but I go all the time for goods for the baby, for my little boy.

Mr. Jenner. And did you use anything from the deepfreeze normally, in connection with the preparation of an evening meal?

Mrs. Paine. I could have gone out then too.

Mr. Jenner. Though you don't recall it specifically, it is possible that you went into the garage.

Mrs. Paine. It is possible.

Mr. Jenner. Garage area.

Senator Cooper. But you don't remember?

Mrs. Paine. I don't remember. This is something I do as habit.

Mr. Jenner. It is so much habit that you don't single it out?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. In any event, if you entered the garage, it was pursuant to a normal practice of preparing dinner and not because you were seeking to look for something out of the ordinary?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Or that your attention was arrested by something out of the ordinary?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. After the dinner hour or half hour, whatever it took, what did you do? Let's take say the 1-hour period following your dinner?

Mrs. Paine. I was busy putting my children to bed.

Mr. Jenner. Where were you located during that period of time?

Mrs. Paine. I normally read them a story in the bedroom which is the back bedroom on the north side.

Senator Cooper. Did you do it that evening?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Not normally but do you remember that you did it?

Mrs. Paine. I am certain I read them a story.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. I am certain I read them a story. Whether they also had a bath that night I can't remember.

Mr. Jenner. Now being in your children's bedroom, which I take it was also your bedroom——

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That would be the rear portion of your home at the corner?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. When you were in that room, what can you see with respect to other portions of your home?

Mrs. Paine. The view from the bedroom door.

Mr. Jenner. Looking into what?

Mrs. Paine. Looking west looks into the kitchen-dining area right past the doorway entrance to the garage.

Mr. Jenner. Can you see into the living room area of your home?

Mrs. Paine. From that doorway you can; yes.

Mr. Jenner. If you stand in the doorway, I take it you can do so.

Mrs. Paine. But sitting on the bed reading a story; no.

Mr. Jenner. But if you stood in the middle of the room and looked out that doorway from your bedroom, you would look into the kitchen area, not into the living room area?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. How long did you remain in your bedroom putting your children to bed?

Mrs. Paine. That process can take as much as an hour and often does.

Mr. Jenner. Give us your very best recollection of how long it took this evening?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall specifically how long.

Mr. Jenner. Is it your recollection that you pursued your normal course in getting them to bed. You read a story, I take it, did you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

61 Mr. Jenner. And you undressed the children and placed them in the crib or bed and you say that normally takes approximately an hour?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you remained in the bedroom during all of that 1 hour period?

Mrs. Paine. Well, I wouldn't be certain of that; no. I also prepare a bottle which involves going to the kitchen, and heating milk. I also chase my children. They don't always just stay in the bedroom.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald either in or about your home from time to time during this hour period that you were preparing your children for sleep that evening?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall specifically except that I was aware he was in the home.

Senator Cooper. How would you be aware he was in the home?

Mrs. Paine. I would have noticed it if he had gone out the door it seems to me, out the front door. One can easily hear, and that would be an unusual thing.

Mr. Jenner. Why would it be unusual?

Mrs. Paine. Well, he never did go out the front door in the evening.

Mr. Jenner. Once he entered your home his normal practice was to stay inside?

Mrs. Paine. Was to turn on the television set and sit.

Mr. Jenner. Did he turn on the television set?

Mrs. Paine. I don't believe he watched television that evening.

Mr. Jenner. Could you tell us of any awareness on your part of his presence in the home, that is you were definitely conscious that he remained inside the house?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And was not out in the yard?

Senator Cooper. How would you know that?

Mrs. Paine. It is a small house. You can hear if the front door or the back door opens. But I can't be absolutely certain.

Senator Cooper. Is what you are saying that you don't remember, or rather that you don't remember that the front door or the back door did open?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. I am also saying there is very little about that evening that stood out as unusual. I have tried to say what I could think of that did stand out as unusual. I think the rest melds together with other evenings which were similar.

Senator Cooper. I don't want to interrupt you but I think she has got to tell what she remembers that evening.

Mr. McCloy. Yes. I think without the meticulous minute by minute, just say what it is.

Senator Cooper. If you don't remember, you don't remember.

Mrs. Paine. I am sorry.

Mr. McCloy. You can't break it down into sequence that far back?

Senator Cooper. Just tell what you remember.

Mr. Jenner. Go ahead and tell us, Mrs. Paine, the course of events that evening, with particular reference to what we are interested in, what Lee Oswald did and where he was during the course of that evening.

Mrs. Paine. I have already said that after I had my children in bed, I went to the garage to work.

Mr. Jenner. Was it now nighttime?

Mrs. Paine. It was now dark, I recall about 9 o'clock. I noticed that the light was on.

Mr. Jenner. Was the door to the garage open?

Mrs. Paine. No; it was closed.

Mr. Jenner. It was closed. And you noticed the light on when you opened the door.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Had the light been on at anytime to your knowledge prior to that?

Mrs. Paine. Not that evening; no.

62 Mr. Jenner. When entering and leaving the garage during the course of your preparing dinner, to your recollection, was there any light on at that time?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't turn the light on at anytime up to this moment of which you speak?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Senator Cooper. Had you been in the garage that evening before the time that you found the light on?

Mrs. Paine. If I had only in this course of habit which also included if it was dark, flipping the switch on and flipping it off.

Senator Cooper. You don't remember if you did that or not before.

Mrs. Paine. Specifically, no.

Mr. McCloy. She said she might have been.

Mr. Jenner. Is that a hand switch?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You must trip it. Where is the switch located, in the kitchen or in the garage?

Mrs. Paine. The switch is in the garage.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, the witness has before her Commission Exhibit 435, which is a picture of her home, looking through the door leading to the garage from the kitchen. Is the light switch shown in that picture?

Mrs. Paine. No; it is not.

Mr. Jenner. And why is it not shown?

Mrs. Paine. The light switch that turns on the light in the garage is on the interior of the garage approximately through the wall from the switch you see in the picture, which lights the kitchen, or the dining area overhead light.

Mr. Jenner. And the switch that is shown in the picture, is it to the right of the doorjamb?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And rather high?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Placed high, and on the picture it is shown as having, oh, is that a white plastic plate?

Mrs. Paine. It is exactly.

Mr. Jenner. And the switch that lights the garage light is directly opposite on the other side of the wall inside the garage?

Mrs. Paine. That is my recollection; yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now directing your attention to Commission Exhibit 429, that is a picture, is it not, of the garage interior of your home taken from the outlet door of the garage and looking back toward the kitchen?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that correct? And does that show the doorway from the garage into your kitchen?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. In other words, the opposite side of the wall, which is shown in Commission Exhibit 435?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And are you able to locate the light switch on Commission Exhibit 429 which is the garage interior exhibit? That is, can you see the switch?

Mrs. Paine. No; I am not certain I can. This is something else.

Mr. Jenner. I point out to you the configuration which is halfway down the garage doorjamb outline.

Mrs. Paine. Right next to the top surface of the deepfreeze.

Mr. Jenner. Yes. Is that the light switch?

Mrs. Paine. I thought it was higher.

Senator Cooper. You know there is a light switch there, don't you?

Mr. McCloy. There is a light switch there.

Mrs. Paine. I know I don't pull the string which is there clearly in the picture.

Mr. Jenner. You step down into the garage do you, or is it at the kitchen floor level?

63 Mrs. Paine. Are you still asking?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. No; you don't step down, perhaps 3 inches all together.

Mr. Jenner. The floor of the garage and the floor of the kitchen are at a level?

Mrs. Paine. Approximately at a level.

Mr. Jenner. Why did you enter the garage on that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. I was about to lacquer some children's large blocks, playing blocks.

Mr. Jenner. These are blocks that you had cut at some other time?

Mrs. Paine. I had cut them on the saw in the garage; yes; previously.

Mr. Jenner. Proceed.

Representative Ford. Mr. Jenner, may I ask a question there?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Representative Ford. Some people have a habit of turning lights on and off again regularly. Others are a little careless about it. Would you describe your attitude in this regard?

Mrs. Paine. I am definitely a person with the habit of turning them off.

Representative Ford. This is a trait that you have?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. Now, if you were to go out from the kitchen to the garage, is it easy for you as you go out the door to turn the light on?

Mrs. Paine. And off; yes.

Representative Ford. It is very simple for you to do so?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. Both going out and coming in?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. And as you go out on your right or left?

Mrs. Paine. It is on my left as I go out of the garage.

Representative Ford. And as you come in from the garage to the kitchen it is on your right.

Mrs. Paine. As you come into the garage from the kitchen——

Mr. McCloy. When you are going out to the garage, on which side is it?

Mrs. Paine. It is on my right.

Mr. McCloy. On your right. Coming out from the garage to the kitchen it is on your left?

Mrs. Paine. That is what he said.

Mr. McCloy. You said it just the opposite, I think.

Representative Ford. I thought I asked the question and she responded in the reverse.

Mr. McCloy. Maybe.

Representative Ford. And it surprised me a little bit. The record may show two different responses there.

Mr. Jenner. Could we recover that now?

Mrs. Paine. The switch is on the west doorjamb of that door between the two rooms.

Mr. Jenner. Perhaps that may help, Mrs. Paine. When you are in the kitchen about to enter the garage, the doorway from the kitchen to the garage, and you are going to enter from the kitchen into the garage, where is the switch with respect to whether it is on your right side or your left side?

Mrs. Paine. Just coming into the garage it is on my right side.

Mr. Jenner. That is leaving your kitchen entering the garage it is on your right side. Now when you are in the garage and you are about to enter the kitchen, the switch then is on your left? Is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. That clarifies it. May I now ask in your observations of either Marina or Lee, were they the type that were conscious of turning light switches on or off? Was this an automatic reaction? Were they careless about it? What was their trait if you have any observation?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall any other time that the garage light had been left on, and I would say certainly I saw enough of Marina to be able to state what I thought would be a trait, and she would normally turn off a light when she was done, in the room.

64 Representative Ford. She had the normal reaction of turning a light off if she left a room?

Mrs. Paine. Her own room. Now you see most of the rooms—if she was the last one in the room she would turn it off; yes; going to bed or something like that she certainly would turn it off.

Mr. Jenner. Of course if she was going to bed she would turn the light off. But when she was leaving the room, was it her tendency to turn off the light?

Mrs. Paine. Well, the garage light is the only room in my house you leave not to come back to right away. The whole house is active all the time until bedtime. It is hard to answer.

Mr. Jenner. So the lights are on?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. Would you make any observation about Lee's tendencies or traits in this regard?

Mrs. Paine. I can't say I have observation as to his tendencies.

Mr. Jenner. It was your habit, however, as far as you are concerned with respect to the light in the garage to turn it off when you left the garage?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What were your habits with respect to closing the main garage door, that is the door opening onto the street?

Mrs. Paine. That was always closed except to open just to take out the trash can.

Mr. Jenner. And though it is shown in one of the photographs as open.

Mrs. Paine. That was done for the purpose of the photograph by the FBI.

Mr. Jenner. So that normally your garage door is down?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Was it down when you arrived?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it was.

Mr. Jenner. At your home when you were surprised to see Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it certainly was.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have recollection whether anytime that evening of hearing the garage door being raised or seeing the garage door up?

Mrs. Paine. I have no such recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection that it was down at all times?

Mrs. Paine. I wasn't in the garage.

Mr. Jenner. Well, you entered the garage did you not that evening?

Mrs. Paine. Except then; yes, at 9 or so. It was certainly down.

Mr. Jenner. It was down then?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You say your home is small and you can hear even the front door opening. Does the raising of the garage door cause some clatter?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; it does.

Mr. Jenner. And had the garage door been raised, even though you were giving attention to your children, would you have heard it?

Mrs. Paine. If it was raised slow and carefully; no, I would not have heard it.

Mr. Jenner. But if it were raised normally?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You would have heard it. And it is your recollection that at no time that evening were you conscious of that garage door having been raised.

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. You had reached the point at which you said you entered the garage to, did you say, lacquer some blocks which you had prepared?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. What did you notice in the garage when you entered it to lacquer those blocks?

Mrs. Paine. The garage was as I always found it, and I went and got the lacquer from the workbench on the west side of the garage and painted the blocks on top of the deepfreeze. My motions were in the interior portion.

Mr. Jenner. That is in the area of the garage near the kitchen entrance?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. How long were you in the garage on that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. About a half an hour.

65 Mr. Jenner. Did you leave the garage light on while you worked in the garage?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You are definitely conscious, however, of the fact that when you entered the garage the light was on?

Mrs. Paine. I am certain of that. I thought it quite sloppy to have left it on.

Mr. Jenner. Did you make any inquiry of Marina or of Lee Oswald as to the light having been left on?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. No comment at all?

Mrs. Paine. It is my recollection that by the time I was ready to go to the garage to work, say 9 o'clock, Lee had already retired.

Mr. Jenner. Now we would like to know, tell us how you were definitely conscious that he had retired by that time?

Mrs. Paine. He was in the bedroom. Traffic between the bedroom where he was and the bathroom crosses in front of the doorway, the front of the room where I was.

Senator Cooper. Did you see him in the bedroom?

Mrs. Paine. In the bedroom?

Senator Cooper. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. No; but I'd be——

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. No; but I'd be fairly certain I saw him go to it.

Senator Cooper. You saw him go to it?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You saw him passing back and forth from the bedroom to the bathroom and he had his ablutions and then returned to the bedroom to retire, is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. That is my best recollection.

Mr. Jenner. That is your definite consciousness?

Mrs. Paine. All of this was so common that I made no specific note of it.

Senator Cooper. I think you have got to tell what you remember that night. If you can't remember it, you can't remember it.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. But you do remember him passing back and forth from the bedroom that he and Marina normally occupied when he was there, and she occupied when she was there, to the bathroom, and then back to the bedroom. You do have that recollection?

Mrs. Paine. I recall specifically the feeling that he was in the room, and this grounded no doubt in his having been back and forth as you have described.

Mr. Jenner. You remained in the garage about a half hour lacquering your children's blocks.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. You left the garage then, did you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I did.

Mr. Jenner. And where did you go when you left the garage?

Mrs. Paine. To the kitchen or living room.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see anybody when you entered the kitchen or living room?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; Marina was still up.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see Lee Oswald anytime from that moment forward until you retired for the evening?

Mrs. Paine. I saw Lee Oswald at no time from that moment forward.

Mr. Jenner. The answer to my question is no?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you speak with him or he with you at anytime from that moment forward until you retired?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Were you conscious that he spoke to Marina at anytime from that moment forward until you retired that evening?

66 Mrs. Paine. I was not conscious that he spoke to Marina; no.

Mr. Jenner. Or she with him?

Mrs. Paine. Or she with him.

Mr. Jenner. What time that evening did you retire?

Mrs. Paine. I would guess around 11 or 11:30.

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina remain up and retire at anytime or had she retired earlier?

Mrs. Paine. It seems to me we remained up and retired at about the same time, having folded laundry on the sofa before we retired, and talked.

Mr. Jenner. Were you looking at the television while you were doing the folding?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall. I don't think so.

Mr. Jenner. Now let us return to the garage for a moment. When you were in the garage for the half hour, did you notice the blanket wrapped package you testified about yesterday?

Mrs. Paine. I don't specifically recall seeing it; no.

Mr. Jenner. You first weren't conscious of it?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't stumble over it.

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. It wasn't drawn to your attention in any fashion. Is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner. Now, as you and Marina sat that evening, folding the ironing, what did you discuss?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall specifically.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion that might serve to refresh your recollection, any discussion of the fact that Lee Oswald had come home or come to Irving in the first place on a Thursday afternoon, which is unusual, or that he had come home unannounced and without invitation, which also as you have testified was unusual? Wasn't there any discussion between you and Marina, speculation at least on your part as to why he was home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes, there was discussion. I can't recall exactly what time in the evening it took place but I recall the content of the discussion.

Mr. Jenner. You tell us about it.

Mrs. Paine. She suggested that he was making up the quarrel that they had had because of her attempt to reach him by telephone, and I agreed, concurred with that judgment of it.

Mr. Jenner. What was the attitude that evening?

Mrs. Paine. He was very warm and friendly.

Mr. Jenner. Was there anything unusual about his attitude and conduct that evening?

Mrs. Paine. Nothing except he went to bed a little earlier than he normally would have on a Sunday evening before work.

Mr. Jenner. Were you conscious of the fact that he was retiring a little earlier than he normally would?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And did you speculate in your mind as to why that might be?

Mrs. Paine. No. I knew that he would go to bed as early as 10 o'clock say on the Sunday evening before going to work the next day. This was just, still early.

Mr. Jenner. What was Marina's attitude toward him that evening? Was she reserved because of this quarrel?

Mrs. Paine. No. I think she felt the best thing was to pass it by and not discuss it.

Mr. Jenner. That was your impression of her?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Of her conduct.

Senator Cooper. That is just your idea about it, isn't it?

Mrs. Paine. Well, and that I saw her do exactly, that too.

Mr. Jenner. Do exactly what?

Mrs. Paine. She didn't ask him why he had come.

67 Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. You were present when Marina put a question to——

Mrs. Paine. She did not ask him.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, she did not.

Mr. McCloy. She did not.

Mr. Jenner. Oh, I am sorry.

Mrs. Paine. Certainly not in my presence.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have any impression as to how long he had been at your home prior to your driving down the street and first seeing him?

Mrs. Paine. He usually arrived from his ride with Wesley Frazier somewhere around a quarter of 5, so I guess it was a few minutes to 10 minutes.

Mr. Jenner. You arrived at your home in the neighborhood of 5:25 or 5:30. So it is your impression that he had been at your home from 10 to 15 minutes?

Mrs. Paine. No; I say from a few minutes to 10 minutes.

Mr. Jenner. A few minutes to 10 minutes. Did Marina say anything that evening of his having a package with him when he came to your home?

Mrs. Paine. No; she didn't.

Mr. Jenner. No discussion of that nature occurred?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. I am going to put a general question to you. Do you have any recollection at all of Lee Oswald actually being in the garage of your home that evening?

Mrs. Paine. I have said that I had the feeling from traffic that had preceded it that he was in the bedroom when I saw he was no longer in the rest of the house. When I saw the light was on, my distinct thought was that he had left it on. I think that was founded upon an awareness of what Marina had been doing and I suppose what he was doing.

Mr. Jenner. You say doing. You mean an awareness——

Mrs. Paine. In other words, it was common for both Marina and Lee to go to the garage, but when I saw the light was on I was certain it was Lee that had left it on.

Mr. Jenner. Rather than Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Rather than Marina.

Mr. Jenner. Because of her habit of turning off lights?

Mrs. Paine. Not only that. I feel that I—memory of what she had been doing during the time that I was also putting the children to bed. She was involved with the children.

Mr. Jenner. May we possibly do this. Did you see Marina in the garage at anytime?

Mrs. Paine. That evening?

Mr. Jenner. That evening.

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You did not see Lee Oswald in the garage at anytime that evening?

Mrs. Paine. Did not see him in the garage; no.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Chairman, I intend at this moment to proceed to the next day. I wondered if members of the Commission have any further questions of Mrs. Paine with respect to the afternoon or evening of November 21?

Mr. McCloy. I don't have any. I think she has covered it all. I would remind you that we have got to be leaving, Mr. Ford and I, and Senator Cooper around noon. We would like to make as much progress as we can before we go.

Mr. Jenner. That is fine. I will have completed this phase.

Senator Cooper. If you can get through the events of the 22d.

Mr. Jenner. You retired along about 11:30?

Mrs. Paine. That is my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. The evening of the 21st. Did you sleep through the night?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I woke at 7:30.

Mr. Jenner. The children did not awaken you at anytime during the night and nothing else awakened you?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall that anything woke me; no.

Mr. Jenner. Is your recollection sufficient that you were not awakened during the night, that is your definite impression at the moment?

68 Mrs. Paine. I get up often in the night to change a diaper or cover a child, but this is a matter of habit and I don't recall whether this night contained such a getting up or not.

Mr. Jenner. You sleep with your children, do you not?

Mrs. Paine. We are in the same bedroom.

Mr. Jenner. You awakened when in the morning?

Mrs. Paine. At 7:30.

Mr. Jenner. And when you awakened, immediately after you awakened what did you do?

Mrs. Paine. When I awoke I felt the house was extremely quiet and the thought occurred to me that Lee might have overslept. I wondered if he had gotten up in time to get off around 7 o'clock because I knew he had to go to meet Wesley Frazier to catch his ride. I looked about and found a plastic coffee cup in the sink that had clearly been used and judged he had had a cup of coffee and left.

Mr. Jenner. Did you see any other evidence of his having had breakfast?

Mrs. Paine. That was all he normally had for breakfast.

Mr. Jenner. A plastic coffee cup with some remains in it of coffee?

Mrs. Paine. Instant coffee; yes.

Mr. Jenner. What was his habit with respect to his breakfast when he made his visits?

Mrs. Paine. It was very normal for him to take coffee.

Mr. Jenner. Was Marina up and about when you arose at 7:30?

Mrs. Paine. No; she was not.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection of the garage area? Was the door to the garage, the entrance to the garage from the kitchen, closed or open?

Mrs. Paine. It was closed. Would it help if I tried to narrate what happened?

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mr. McCloy. Go ahead and narrate.

Mrs. Paine. I fixed breakfast for myself and my children, turned on the television set to hear President Kennedy speak in Fort Worth, and had breakfast there. I left the house about 9 with my little girl and boy, because she had a dentist appointment, the little girl. I left the television set on, feeling that Marina might not think to turn it on, but I knew that she would be interested to see President Kennedy.

I then was gone until nearly noon, 11:30 or so, both to the dentist and on some errands following that, came back and there was coverage of the fact of the motorcade in Dallas, but there was no television cameras showing it, as you know, and Marina thanked me for having left the television set on. She said she woke up in kind of a bad mood, but she had seen the arrival of President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy at the airport in Dallas, and had been thrilled with this occasion and with the greeting he had received, and it had lifted her spirits.

Very shortly after this time, I had only just begun to prepare the lunch, the announcement was made that the President had been shot, and I translated this to Marina. She had not caught it from the television statement. And I was crying as I did the translation. And then we sat down and waited at the television set, no longer interested in the preparing of lunch, and waited to hear further word.

I got out some candles and lit them, and my little girl also lighted a candle, and Marina said to me, "Is that a way of praying?", and I said "Yes, it is, just my own way." And it was well over an hour before we heard definitely that the President was dead.

Mr. Jenner. How did that come to your attention?

Mrs. Paine. It was announced on the television. I think it was even still in the intervening time. It was announced on the television that the shot which was supposed to have killed the President was fired from the Texas School Book Depository Building on Elm.

Mr. Jenner. Did you communicate that to her?

Mrs. Paine. Marina at this time was in the yard hanging some clothes. I recall going out to her and telling her this.

Mr. Jenner. What did she say?

Mrs. Paine. I don't believe she said anything. I then also——

69 Mr. Jenner. Excuse me. You say "I don't believe she said anything." Is it your recollection?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall anything at all that she said.

Mr. Jenner. Would you——

Mr. McCloy. You told her that you had heard over the television?

Mrs. Paine. I heard that the shot had been made——

Mr. McCloy. Coming from the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. Paine. Schoolbook depository, and I believe I also said I didn't know there was a building on Elm.

Senator Cooper. Why did you go out to tell her, this fact?

Mrs. Paine. I felt this was terribly close, somebody working in that building had been there. I thought Lee might be able to say somewhat about what happened, had been close to the event. This was my thought, that we would know somebody who would be able to give or possibly give a first-hand——

Senator Cooper. Did you have any thought at all that Lee Oswald might have been the man who fired the shot?

Mrs. Paine. Absolutely none; no.

Mr. Jenner. Why was that, Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. Paine. I had never thought of him as a violent man. He had never said anything against President Kennedy, nor anything about President Kennedy. I had no idea that he had a gun. There was nothing that I had seen about him that indicated a man with that kind of grudge or hostility.

Mr. McCloy. But you told this to Marina because of the association of Lee Oswald with the schoolbook depository?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I then proceeded to hang some clothes.

Mr. Jenner. She did not comment?

Mrs. Paine. She did not comment.

Mr. Jenner. Made no comment?

Mrs. Paine. That is my recollection, that she made no comment. I then helped hang the clothes. My recollection skips then to being again in front of the television listening, and it was then that we heard that the President was dead. We were both sitting on the sofa.

Mr. Jenner. Marina had come in from the yard?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. From the hanging of the clothes?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall whether we came in together or whether she preceded me into the house while I finished hanging up the clothes. But I do recall then next sitting on the sofa when the announcement was definitely made that the President was dead. And she said to me "What a terrible thing this was for Mrs. Kennedy and for the two children." I remember her words were, "Now the two children will have to grow up without the father." It was very shortly after this we were still sitting on the sofa.

Mr. McCloy. Just take a little time and compose yourself.

Mrs. Paine. My neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, came in, really I think to see if we had heard, and——

Senator Cooper. Why don't you rest a few minutes?

Mrs. Paine. I can proceed. I recall my feeling of anger with her for not being more upset, or she didn't appear to me to be, any more than reporting a remarkable news item. Then it was shortly after that that the bell rang and I went to the door and met some six officers from the sheriff's office and police station.

Mr. Jenner. Was this approximately 3:30 p.m.?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, I think it was earlier, but I wouldn't be certain. I know that we had put our children to bed. They were all taking a nap, though I am not certain. Yes, my little girl was asleep also. I cried after I had heard that the President was dead, and my little girl was upset, too, always taking it from me more than from any understanding of the situation. And she cried herself to sleep on the sofa, and I moved her to her bed, and Christopher was already asleep in his crib. June was in bed asleep.

Mr. Jenner. Was Marina emotional at all? Did she cry?

Mrs. Paine. No. She said to me, "I feel very badly also, but we seem to show that we are upset in different ways." She did not actually cry.

70 Mr. McCloy. May I go back a moment there, if I may. You said you were sitting on the sofa—that she and you were sitting on the sofa. While you were listening or looking at the television, was there any announcement over the television of a suspicion being cast at Lee?

Mrs. Paine. It had just been announced that they had caught someone in a theatre, but there was no name given.

Mr. McCloy. So up to this point there was no suggestion that Lee was involved?

Mrs. Paine. No; not until the time the officers came to the door.

Mr. McCloy. Not until the officers came?

Mrs. Paine. Do you want to ask me about that?

Mr. Jenner. Yes. Now, the officers came to the door——

Mr. McCloy. Pardon me. Were you asking a question?

Mr. Jenner. I was waiting for you.

Mr. McCloy. Senator Cooper reminded me that there were comments, apparently to the effect that somebody from that building had fired the shots. Did you hear that when you were sitting on the sofa with Marina? Did you hear that comment on the television?

Mrs. Paine. No; that was earlier.

Mr. McCloy. That was even earlier?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; before it was announced that he was dead.

Senator Cooper. But when you were all sitting there——

Mrs. Paine. It was at that point that I went out to the yard to tell her.

Senator Cooper. To tell her?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. After that when you went back in and you all were sitting on the sofa and she was there, were there any other comments over the television that someone from this building had fired the shot or that any suspects from——

Mrs. Paine. You mean, someone associated with the building?

Senator Cooper. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. No; that was not said.

Senator Cooper. There was nothing else said about that?

Mrs. Paine. No; just that the shot came from the building.

Mr. McCloy. Nothing else that you heard?

Mrs. Paine. Nothing else about it.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, you do have a definite recollection that you communicated to Marina out in the yard that the shot had come from the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And what did she do when you communicated that to her, apart from what she said? You told us what she said. What did she do? Did she come in the house?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Did she enter the garage?

Mrs. Paine. I don't know. I never saw her enter the garage, but my recollection is that I was outside hanging clothes after I told her this, but what I can't recall is whether she remained with me hanging the clothes or whether she went in the house.

Mr. Jenner. She might have gone into the house?

Mrs. Paine. She might have gone into the house.

Mr. Jenner. But, in any event, you do not recall her entering the garage following your advising her of the announcement that the shot had come, or was thought to have come from the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. Paine. I do not recall.

Senator Cooper. When you went out to tell her, was she hanging clothes?

Mrs. Paine. She was hanging clothes.

Senator Cooper. Then did you go help her, and then both of you were hanging clothes?

Mrs. Paine. I then helped her. What I can't remember is whether she remained and finished the job with me. I remember I finished, remained until they were all hung.

71 Senator Cooper. Do you remember at anytime after that whether or not you were hanging clothes alone?

Mrs. Paine. That is what I am not certain about. I could well have been.

Mr. Jenner. At anytime that afternoon, in any event, up to the time that the policeman rang your doorbell, did you observe or were you aware that Marina had entered the garage?

Mrs. Paine. I wasn't aware that she had entered, if she did.

Mr. Jenner. I take it from your testimony it is possible that Marina, after you advised her that the shot was thought to have come from this Texas School Book Depository, that she might have been inside your home while you were still out in the yard?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. And, of course, if that is so, then she could have entered the garage while she was inside your home, and you were out in the yard hanging clothes?

Mrs. Paine. And I would not have seen her; that is right.

Mr. Jenner. Now, this clothes-hanging occurred in the rear, the yard portion in the rear of your home; is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is it possible—is there a window in the garage opening on the rear of your home on to that yard area, or is the wall blank?

Mrs. Paine. The window one can look into from the area where one hangs clothes goes to the dining area. From where I stood, I could not have seen the door entering the garage, which would be just beyond——

Mr. Jenner. You are talking about the inside door?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. First I would like to know this——

Mrs. Paine. The answer to your question is clear if you see the plan of the interior of the house. No part of the garage shows, no wall or window or any part of the garage shows from the back——

Mr. Jenner. There is no opening from the rear of the garage, is there?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. So you can't see into the garage, at least from——

Mrs. Paine. From the back of my house you can't; no.

Mr. Jenner. There are windows opening from your kitchen into the back part, into the yard, are there not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And being in the yard, could you see when somebody passed across that window, let us say, headed for the garage area?

Mrs. Paine. No. Heading for the garage area, you would not pass across that window.

Mr. Jenner. You would not. In any event, you had no consciousness at anytime that day or afternoon of Marina having entered the garage up to the time the police came?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Is that true of the time in the morning that you have been describing?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. At anytime from 7:30 in the morning, from the time you awakened until the time the police came, you have no consciousness that Marina was in the garage?

Mrs. Paine. No consciousness of that.

Mr. Jenner. Did you enter the garage during this period of time?

Mrs. Paine. I have no specific recollection of having done so.

Mr. Jenner. And you have given us Marina's total exclamation or response to your advising her that the shot had come from the Texas School Book Depository?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. You have recounted that your next-door neighbor, Mrs. Robert—or is it Roberts?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Came over. Was Marina present——

72 Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. When she arrived at your home? Were you girls in the living room?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you sit down and talk?

Mrs. Paine. No. She just came to the door to see if we had heard the news.

Mr. Jenner. She was there just a bit of the time?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. She did not come, actually, into the house.

Mr. Jenner. She did not. She stood in the doorway?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Is that correct?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And did she speak to you and to Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Well, she spoke in English, and I doubt she said much more than, "Have you heard?".

Mr. Jenner. Did Marina say anything to you for translation of Mrs. Reynolds?

Mrs. Paine. No. Roberts.

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Roberts; while Mrs. Roberts was there?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Learning that you girls were aware of the events up to that moment, she left and, as far as you know, returned to her home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, that morning—if I may, Mr. Chairman, because of the entry of the police, that is a good cutoff point, I would like to go back to the morning for the moment, or the evening before. Mrs. Paine, did you then have what might be called some curtain rods in your garage?

Mrs. Paine. I believe there were.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have a recollection?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; they were stored in the garage, wrapped in loose brown paper.

Mr. Jenner. Is it the brown paper of the nature and character you described yesterday that you get at the market and have in a roll?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Had you wrapped that package yourself?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, curtain rods can be of various types. One type of curtain rod, as I remember, is a solid brass rod. Others are hollow. Some are shaped. Would you describe these curtain rods, please?

Mrs. Paine. They were a light weight.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me; do you still have them?

Mrs. Paine. I still have them.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. Metal rods that you slip the curtain over, not with a ring but just with the cloth itself, and they are expansion rods.

Mr. Jenner. Are they flat on one side?

Mrs. Paine. They are flat on one side; about an inch wide and about a quarter of an inch thick.

Mr. Jenner. And assume we are holding the rod horizontally, do the edges of the rod slip over?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Did you wrap these rods in the paper? Had you wrapped them?

Mrs. Paine. Sometime previously I had.

Senator Cooper. How long before?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, possibly a year.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. Possibly a year.

Senator Cooper. As far as you know, they had never been changed?

Mrs. Paine. Moved about, but not changed.

Senator Cooper. Can you just describe the length?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. The length of the rods, at the time you wrapped them.

73 Mrs. Paine. They would be 36 inches when pushed together.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. They would be about maybe 36 inches when pushed together.

Senator Cooper. You remember wrapping them. Do you remember what the size, the length of the rods were at the time you wrapped them?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. How long?

Mrs. Paine. Didn't I answer about 36 inches?

Mr. Jenner. In other words, you pushed them together so that then, they were then their minimum length, unexpanded?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. They were not extended, and in that condition they were 36 inches long?

Mrs. Paine. Something like that.

Mr. Jenner. Now, how many of them were there?

Mrs. Paine. Two.

Mr. Jenner. These were lightweight metal?

Mrs. Paine. Very. Now, there was another item that was both heavier and longer.

Mr. Jenner. In that same package?

Mrs. Paine. No; I don't think so. In another similar package wrapped up just to keep the dust off were two Venetian blinds. I guess they were not longer, more like 36 inches also, that had come from the two windows in my bedroom. I took them down to change, and put up pull blinds in their place.

Mr. Jenner. And had you wrapped them?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. How many were there?

Mrs. Paine. Two.

Mr. Jenner. And what was their length?

Mrs. Paine. I think around 36 inches. The width of these windows in the back bedroom.

Mr. Jenner. Let us return to the curtain rods first. Do you still have those curtain rods?

Mrs. Paine. I believe so.

Mr. Jenner. You believe so, or you know; which?

Mrs. Paine. I think Michael went to look after the assassination, whether these were still in the garage.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have a conversation with Michael as to whether he did or didn't look?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Why was he looking to see if the curtain rod package was there?

Mrs. Paine. He was particularly interested in the wrapping, was the wrapping still there, the brown paper.

Mr. Jenner. When did this take place?

Mrs. Paine. After the assassination, perhaps a week or so later, perhaps when one of the FBI people were out; I don't really recall.

Mr. Jenner. And was the package with the curtain rods found on that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. It is my recollection it was.

Mr. Jenner. What about the Venetian blind package?

Mrs. Paine. Still there, still wrapped.

Mr. Jenner. You are fully conscious of the fact that that package is still there?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And to the best of your knowledge, information, and belief the other package, likewise, is there?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Let me ask a question there. After the assassination, at anytime did you go into the garage and look to see if both of these packages were there?

Mrs. Paine. A week and a half, or a week later.

Senator Cooper. At any time?

74 Mrs. Paine. Did I, personally?

Senator Cooper. Have you seen these packages since the assassination?

Mrs. Paine. It seems to me I recall seeing a package.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall opening it up and looking in carefully. I seem to recall seeing the package.

Senator Cooper. Both of them?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Or just one?

Mrs. Paine. Both.

Senator Cooper. Did you feel them to see if the rods were in there?

Mrs. Paine. No. I think Michael did, but I am not certain.

Senator Cooper. But you never did, yourself?

Mrs. Paine. It was not my most pressing——

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. It was not the most pressing thing I had to do at that time.

Senator Cooper. I know that. But you must have read after the assassination the story about Lee Oswald saying, he told Mr. Frazier, I think, that he was carrying some curtain rods in the car?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. Do you remember reading that?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I remember reading that.

Senator Cooper. Didn't that lead you—Did it lead you then to go in and see if the curtain rods were there?

Mrs. Paine. It was all I could do at that point to answer my door, answer my telephone, and take care of my children.

Senator Cooper. I understand you had many things to do.

Mrs. Paine. So I did not.

Senator Cooper. You never did do it?

Mrs. Paine. I am not certain whether I specifically went in and checked on that. I recall a conversation with Michael about it and, to the best of my recollection, things looked as I expected to find them looking out there. This package with brown paper was still there.

Mr. Jenner. By any chance, does that package appear in the photograph that you have identified of the interior of your garage?

Mrs. Paine. I think it is this that is on a shelf almost to the ceiling.

Mr. Jenner. May I get over here, Mr. Chairman?

Mrs. Paine. Along the west edge of the garage, up here.

Mr. Jenner. In view of this, I think it is of some importance that you mark on Commission Exhibit 429 what appears to you to be the package in which the curtain rods were.

Mrs. Paine. To the best of my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. Now the witness has by an arrow indicated a shelf very close to the ceiling in the rear of the garage, and an arrow pointing to what appears to be a long package on that shelf, underneath which she has written "Wrapping paper around venetian blinds"——

Mrs. Paine. "And thin."

Mr. Jenner. What is the next word?

Mrs. Paine. "Curtain rods."

Mr. Jenner. There were two packages, Mrs. Paine, one with the rods and one with the Venetian blinds?

Mrs. Paine. I can't recall. The rods were so thin they hardly warranted a package of their own, but that is rationalization, as you call it.

Mr. Jenner. You do have a recollection that those rods were a very lightweight metal?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. They were not round.

Mr. Jenner. They were flat and slender?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. They were not at all heavy?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

75 Mr. Jenner. They were curved? Were they curved in any respect?

Mrs. Paine. They curved at the ends to attach to the bracket that held them up on the wall.

Mr. Jenner. May I use the chalk on the board, Mr. Chairman. Perhaps it might be better for you, Mrs. Paine, so I don't influence you. Would you draw a picture of the rods?

Mrs. Paine. You are looking down from the top. It attaches here, well, over a loop thing on the wall. Looking from the inside, it curves over a slight bit, and then this is recessed.

Mr. Jenner. I am going to have to have you do that over on a sheet of paper. Will you remain standing for the moment. We will give it an exhibit number. But I would like to have you proceed there. What did you say this was, in the lower diagram?

Mrs. Paine. You are looking down.

Mr. Jenner. Now, where was the break?

Mrs. Paine. The break?

Mr. Jenner. You said they were extension.

Mrs. Paine. That is right. When they are up on the window, it would be like that.

Mr. Jenner. You have drawn a double line to indicate what would be seen if you were looking down into the U-shape of the rod?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. The double line indicates what on either side?

Mrs. Paine. That the lightweight metal, white, turned over, bent around, something less than a quarter of an inch on each side.

Mr. Jenner. Now, would you be good enough to make the same drawing. We will mark that sheet as Commission Exhibit No. 449 upon which the witness is now drawing the curtain rod.

(Commission Exhibit No. 449 was marked for identification.)

Mr. Jenner. While you are doing that, Mrs. Paine, would you be good enough when you return to Irving, Tex., to see if those rods are at hand, and some of our men are going to be in Irving next week. We might come out and take a look at them, and perhaps you might surrender them to us.

Mrs. Paine. You are perfectly welcome to them.

Mr. Jenner. Would you in that connection, Mrs. Paine, do not open the package until we arrive?

Mrs. Paine. I won't even look, then.

Mr. Jenner. All right. Now, would you mark "A" in the upper elevation and "B" in the lower elevation. The elevation in the drawing you have indicated as "A" is a depiction of what?

Mrs. Paine. The curtain rod, as you might look at it from the top when it is hanging in its position, when it is placed in position on the window.

Mr. Jenner. And "B"?

Mrs. Paine. "B" is as it might appear if you could look at it from outside the house; the window.

Mr. Jenner. While the rod was in place?

Mrs. Paine. While the rod was in place.

Mr. Jenner. You have written to the left-hand side "Place at which it attaches to wall fixture," indicating the butt end of the curved side of the rod?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And the two oblongs, each of which you have put at the ends of depiction "B," represent the upturned ends of the fixtures at each end?

Mrs. Paine. Right.

Mr. Jenner. Would you put a little line as to where the break was in the rod.

I offer in evidence, Mr. Chairman, as Commission Exhibit No. 449 the drawing that the witness has just made, and about which she has testified.

Senator Cooper. It will be admitted as part of the evidence.

(Commission Exhibit No. 449 was received in evidence.)

Mr. Jenner. Had there been any conversation between you and Lee Oswald, or between you and Marina, or any conversation taking place in your presence prior to this occasion, in which the subject of curtain rods was mentioned?

Mrs. Paine. No; there was no such conversation.

76 Mr. Jenner. Was the subject of curtain rods—had that ever been mentioned during all of these weekends that Lee Oswald had come to your home, commencing, I think you said, with his first return on October 4, 1963?

Mrs. Paine. It had not been mentioned.

Mr. Jenner. Never by anybody?

Mrs. Paine. By anybody.

Mr. Jenner. Had the subject of curtain rods been mentioned even inadvertently, let us say, by some neighbor talking about the subject, as to whether you had some curtain rods you weren't using?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. That might be loaned? I think you had testified that the curtain rods, when unextended, were 36 inches long, approximately?

Mrs. Paine. That is a guess. I would say, thinking further about it, it must be shorter than that. One went over a window that I am pretty sure was 30 inches wide, and one went over a window that was 42 inches wide, so it had to extend between these. They were identical, and had served at these different windows.

Mr. Jenner. The rods were identical in length when unextended?

Mrs. Paine. Or when fully extended; yes.

Mr. Jenner. What?

Mrs. Paine. Or when fully extended.

Mr. Jenner. Or when fully extended; yes. They could be extended to as great as 42 inches?

Mrs. Paine. At least that. I am just saying what windows they were used for.

Mr. Jenner. If the rods are still available, we will be able to obtain them?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And we will know exactly their length, extended and unextended. Now, as you think further about it, the rods when not extended, that is, when pushed together, might be but 30 inches long?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Because you recall that you have a 30-inch-wide window.

Mrs. Paine. I believe it is more that width than 36.

Mr. Jenner. Would you hold up your hands to indicate what you think the width or the length of the rods is when not extended?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, I don't recall. Maybe like this.

Mr. Jenner. Would you measure that, Mr. Liebeler, please?

Mr. Liebeler. About 28 inches.

Mr. Jenner. I intend to leave the subject of the curtain rods, gentlemen, if you have any questions.

Mr. McCloy. May I ask a question. Did the FBI question you about the curtain rods any, or the Dallas police officials?

Mrs. Paine. Not the Dallas police.

Mr. McCloy. Not the Dallas police?

Mrs. Paine. No. It is possible the FBI did. I don't recall such question.

Mr. McCloy. They didn't take any rods from the garage that you are aware of?

Mrs. Paine. You are aware what the police took. I never did know exactly what they took. I have never heard any mention of the rods having left.

Mr. McCloy. You are not conscious of the Dallas police ever talking to you about curtain rods?

Mrs. Paine. Absolutely no.

Mr. McCloy. But possibly some member of the FBI did?

Mrs. Paine. Possibly. I can't recall.

Mr. McCloy. You can't recall?

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever mention to the FBI anything, or anybody else up until recently, the existence of the curtain rods about which you have now testified?

Mrs. Paine. I have already said Michael and I discussed it.

Mr. Jenner. When?

Mrs. Paine. A week or two after the assassination would be my guess.

Mr. Jenner. And did you discuss those particular curtain rods about which you have now testified?

77 Mrs. Paine. We were particularly interested in seeing if the wrapping paper that we used to wrap these things was there, and it was. I recall that.

Representative Ford. Did Lee Oswald know where you kept this roll of wrapping paper?

Mrs. Paine. To the best of my knowledge, he did not know where I kept it. I had never wrapped something when he was around. Neither he nor Marina had ever asked to use this paper or the string that I had.

Representative Ford. Where did you keep it? I don't recall precisely.

Mrs. Paine. I can be very clear. There is a picture here of a large secretary desk on Commission Exhibit No. 435. It is in the bottom drawer, you see, in that desk. This is not the secretary desk upon which——

Mr. Jenner. The note was found?

Mrs. Paine. The note was found.

Representative Ford. You kept it in the lower drawer?

Mrs. Paine. Along with some gum tape and string.

Representative Ford. And this is the section shown on Commission Exhibit 435?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. Mr. Reporter, you caught the measurement by Mr. Liebeler, 28 inches. Mrs. Paine, what is your best recollection as to how many curtain rods there were?

Mrs. Paine. Two, I am certain.

Mr. Jenner. Just two? And you wrapped the package yourself, did you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. When you and Michael undertook your discussion about curtain rods, did you or did he open up this package?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Is it your present best recollection that as far as you know, the package, as far as wrapping is concerned, is in the same condition now as when you wrapped it initially?

Mrs. Paine. Certainly very similar.

Senator Cooper. What was the answer?

Mrs. Paine. Certainly very similar. I don't recall making any change.

Mr. Jenner. Is there a possibility that the package was unwrapped at anytime?

Mrs. Paine. In connection with this inquiry of Michael's; yes.

Mr. Jenner. You think he might have but you don't know.

Mrs. Paine. Or I might have. I don't recall. I recall that it wasn't something that interested me as much as the other things I had to get done.

Mr. Jenner. But the rods about which you have testified as far as you know are on the shelf in your garage at your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Do you recall whether when the FBI discussed this subject with you, if you can recall that, that you advised the FBI of these particular curtain rods?

Mrs. Paine. I am not perfectly certain that they discussed it with me.

Mr. Jenner. You just have no recollection of any interview with the FBI on this particular subject?

Mrs. Paine. It seems to me they brought it up, but I don't recall the content nor whether they went out. I certainly think I would remember if I had gone out to the garage with an FBI representative.

Mr. Jenner. But you do not?

Mrs. Paine. But I do not remember such an occasion.

Mr. Jenner. Unless the members of the Commission have any further questions with respect to the curtain rods, I will return to the afternoon.

Senator Cooper. I want to ask just two questions. Before the assassination, did you know where the package with the curtain rods in it was situated within the garage?

Mrs. Paine. I gave it no attention but yes, it is my impression that I did go out to see if things were where I expected to find them. They were wrapped in brown paper, the curtain rods and venetian blinds. And found things there. I don't recall that I looked into the package.

Mr. Jenner. You did find the package?

78 Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What was the size of the package in length and width if you can remember at the time you wrapped it?

Mrs. Paine. I suppose about like this, not closed but just wrapping paper folded over.

Mr. Jenner. Would you hold your hands there please.

Mrs. Paine. Yes. But by no means a neat package, just enough to keep the dust off.

Mr. Liebeler. Thirty-two and a half inches.

Senator Cooper. What was the width of the package?

Mrs. Paine. Like so.

Senator Cooper. That you wrapped?

Mrs. Paine. Now I am not certain. I am really thinking now of the package with the venetian blind. I don't recall exactly the package with the rods, whether they were included in this other or whether they warranted a package of their own.

Mr. Liebeler. The witness indicated a width of approximately 7½ inches.

Senator Cooper. I will ask one other question. The ends of the rod which are at right angles to the long surface, how long? What is their approximate size?

Mrs. Paine. Two and a half inches to three inches.

Senator Cooper. What?

Mrs. Paine. Two and a half to three inches.

Senator Cooper. All right, go ahead.

Mr. Jenner. Anyone entering your home from the outside walking up your driveway and looking in the windows, would they see anybody sitting on the sofa you have described?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Do you sit on the sofa to look at your television set?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Would you take the ground floor plan that is before you and indicate——

Mrs. Paine. Do you want me to draw in the sofa and the television set?

Mr. Jenner. No; I just want you to put an "X" as to where the sofa is, and put a double "X" as to where the television set is. Now the opening that appears to the left of the double "X," is that a window or a door?

Mrs. Paine. That is the front door.

Mr. Jenner. And is there any window in that wall, in the living room wall.

Mrs. Paine. Practically the rest of the wall is window.

Mr. Jenner. And on this drawing it appears as a solid wall?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. The fact is that is a picture window?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. It is just your printing filled in. It is exactly like this. There it is.

Mr. Jenner. Turning to Commission Exhibit 431, the picture window is shown there, is it not?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now it would be possible, would it not, if someone walked along the sidewalk and was intent on peering in to see if anyone is there, to see somebody sitting at the sofa looking at the television set?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. McCloy. I am very anxious to hear your story before we leave.

Senator Cooper. I can stay here while the details are filled in.

Mr. Jenner. The police arrived and what occurred.

Mrs. Paine. I went to the door. They announced themselves as from both the sheriff's office and the Dallas Police Office, showed me at least one package or two. I was very surprised.

Mr. Jenner. Did you say anything?

Mrs. Paine. I said nothing. I think I just dropped my jaw. And the man in front said by way of explanation "We have Lee Oswald in custody. He is charged with shooting an officer." This is the first I had any idea that Lee79 might be in trouble with the police or in any way involved in the day's events. I asked them to come in. They said they wanted to search the house. I asked if they had a warrant. They said they didn't. They said they could get the sheriff out here right away with one if I insisted. And I said no, that was all right, they could be my guests.

They then did search the house. I directed them to the fact that most of the Oswald's things were in storage in my garage and showed where the garage was, and to the room where Marina and the baby had stayed where they would find the other things which belonged to the Oswalds. Marina and I went with two or three of these police officers to the garage.

Mr. Jenner. How many police officers were there?

Mrs. Paine. There were six altogether, and they were busy in various parts of the house. The officer asked me in the garage did Lee Oswald have any weapons or guns. I said no, and translated the question to Marina, and she said yes; that she had seen a portion of it—had looked into—she indicated the blanket roll on the floor.

Mr. Jenner. Was the blanket roll on the floor at that time?

Mrs. Paine. She indicated the blanket roll on the floor very close to where I was standing. As she told me about it I stepped onto the blanket roll.

Mr. Jenner. This might be helpful. You had shaped that up yesterday and I will just put it on the floor.

Mrs. Paine. And she indicated to me that she had peered into this roll and saw a portion of what she took to be a gun she knew her husband to have, a rifle. And I then translated this to the officers that she knew that her husband had a gun that he had stored in here.

Mr. Jenner. Were you standing on the blanket when you advised——

Mrs. Paine. When I translated. I then stepped off of it and the officer picked it up in the middle and it bent so.

Mr. Jenner. It hung limp just as it now hangs limp in your hand?

Mrs. Paine. And at this moment I felt this man was in very deep trouble and may have done——

Mr. McCloy. Were the strings still on it?

Mrs. Paine. The strings were still on it. It looked exactly as it had at previous times I had seen it. It was at this point I say I made the connection with the assassination, thinking that possibly, knowing already that the shot had been made from the School Book Depository, and that this was a rifle that was missing, I wondered if he would not also be charged before the day was out with the assassination.

Mr. Jenner. Did you say anything?

Mrs. Paine. No; I didn't say that.

Mr. Jenner. When the officer picked up the blanket package, did you hear any crinkling as though there was paper inside?

Mrs. Paine. No crinkling.

Mr. Jenner. None whatsoever. When you stepped on the package, did you have a feeling through your feet that there was something inside the package in the way of paper.

Mrs. Paine. Not anything in the way of paper.

Mr. Jenner. Or wrapping.

Mrs. Paine. Or anything that crinkled; no. I did think it was hard but that was my cement floor.

Mr. Jenner. But definitely you had no sensation of any paper inside?

Mrs. Paine. No such sensation.

Mr. Jenner. Of the nature or character of the wrapping paper you identified yesterday.

Mrs. Paine. No; and when he picked it up I would think such paper would rattle, but there was no such sound. Marina said nothing at this time. She was very white, and of course I judged——

Mr. Jenner. Did she blanch?

Mrs. Paine. She is not a person to immediately show her feelings necessarily. She was white. I wouldn't say that it was a sudden thing. I can't be certain that it was sudden at that point.

Representative Ford. How close was she standing to it.

80 Mrs. Paine. From here to there, about 6 feet.

Mr. Jenner. Proceed.

Mrs. Paine. The officers then said they would like me and Marina to go down to the police station, and I said well, I would seek to try to get a baby-sitter to come to stay with the children so that we might accompany them. About this time, we then left the garage as I recall, because then Michael Paine arrived at the front door. I was in the living room when he came. And I said "Did you know to come" and he said that he had heard Oswald's name mentioned on the radio, and had come over directly, for which I may say I was very glad.

Mr. Jenner. How far away from your home—where did he live?

Mrs. Paine. It would take about a half hour drive—he was working—from where he was working to come, 20 minutes perhaps.

Mr. Jenner. Do you have the address at the tip of your tongue?

Mrs. Paine. Where he works; no. I don't know the address. I know how to get to it.

Mr. Jenner. Do you know where he lived?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What was the address?

Mrs. Paine. He lived at the Villa Fontaine Apartments, apartment 217, 2377 Dalworth.

Mr. Jenner. D-A-L-W-O-R-T-H?

Mrs. Paine. D-A-L-W-O-R-T-H, in Grand Prairie, Tex.

Mr. Jenner. Where is Grand Prairie, Tex.

Mrs. Paine. Grand Prairie is suburban to Dallas, between Dallas and Fort Worth, nearer to Dallas, and it was a location very near to where he worked.

Mr. Jenner. What distance in miles from your home?

Mrs. Paine. You measure distance in minutes in Texas; driving time. I don't know; 20 minutes to where he lived.

Mr. Jenner. All right, proceed.

Mrs. Paine. The police officers then asked if Michael would also accompany us to the police station and he said he would. I changed clothes to a suit from slacks, and went to the house of my babysitter. She has no telephone. I need to walk to her.

Mr. Jenner. Where was Marina in the meantime?

Mrs. Paine. Marina remained in the house with the children. Lynn by this time had awakened as I recall. Christopher was still sleeping and I think June was also. And I said I would walk over to my neighbors to ask if—there was something that intervened I just remembered. I first went and asked my immediate neighbor, Mrs. Roberts, if she could keep the children for a short time in the afternoon, but she was just on her way to go somewhere. She couldn't. So then I went to the home of the person I normally have for a baby-sitter. It was now after school or this babysitter would not have been there, which brings us to 3:30 perhaps. And I asked the mother if the young girl, teenage girl, could come and stay at the house. I was accompanied to the house by one of the officers. As we left the house I said "Oh, you don't have to go with me." Oh, he said, he'd be glad to. And then it occurred to me he had been assigned to go with me, and I said "come along." It was the first I have ever experienced being in the company of people who suspected me of anything, and of course that is their business.

We did arrange then for the girls to come back, one or two, I forget whether it was two of the daughters or one that came then to my house to stay with the children. As I came back, I noticed the officers carrying a number of things from the house, and I looked into the back of one of the cars. It was across the street from my house, and saw he had three cases of 78 records of mine, and I said, "You don't need those and I want to use them on Thanksgiving weekend. I have promised to lead a folk dance conference on the weekend. I will need those records which are all folk dance records and I doubt that you might get them back at that time."

And I said, "that is a 16 mm projector. You don't want that. It is mine."

And he took me by the arm and he said, "We'd better get down to the station. We have wasted too much time as it is." And I said, "I want a list of what you are taking, please." Or perhaps that was before. As much answer81 as I ever got was "We'd better get to the station." Then I evidently had made them nervous because when we got back from this car to the house, Marina wanted to change from slacks as I had already done to a dress. They would not permit her to do that. I said "She has a right to, she is a woman, to dress as she wishes before going down." And I directed her to the bathroom to change. The officer opened the bathroom door and said no, she had no time to change. I was still making arrangements with the babysitters, arranging for our leaving the children there, and one of the officers made a statement to the effect of "we'd better get this straight in a hurry Mrs. Paine or we'll just take the children down and leave them with juvenile while we talk to you."

And I said "Lynn, you may come too" in reply to this. I don't like being threatened. And then Christopher was still sleeping so I left him in the house and Lynn, my daughter, and Marina took her daughter and her baby with her to the police station, so we were quite a group going into town in the car. Michael was in one car, Marina and I and all the children were in another with three police officers as I recall. One of them spoke some Czech, tried to understand what was being said. The one in the front seat turned to me and said "Are you a Communist," and I said, "No, I am not, and I don't even feel the need of a Fifth Amendment." And he was satisfied with that. We went on then to the police station, and waited until such time as they could interview us. They interviewed Michael at one point separately.

Mr. Jenner. Separately?

Mrs. Paine. And they interviewed Marina while I was present.

Mr. Jenner. Did you interpret for her?

Mrs. Paine. They had an interpreter there, a Mr. Ilya Mamantov whom I was very glad to see. He is the son-in-law of a woman who has tutored me in Dallas, so I had met him before. I was very glad to have someone whose skill in Russian was greater than mine, and Marina had said even in the car going down to the station, "your Russian has suddenly become no good at all." She had asked me again in the car, "isn't it true that the penalty for shooting someone in Texas is the electric chair" and I said "yes, that is true."

Then at the police station——

Representative Ford. May I ask this. Was there any interrogation other than what you have mentioned by police officers in the car?

Mrs. Paine. No; none that I recall.

Representative Ford. You and Marina talked back and forth freely or to a limited degree?

Mrs. Paine. We talked back and forth freely and then she wanted me to translate to the officer, to the one who understood some Czech, to help him understand. Then in the room where we were asked questions, what I particularly recall was they wanted Marina to say what she had said in the garage to the effect that she had seen a rifle in that wrapped blanket, and she made the statement again and it was made up into an affidavit for her to sign with Mr. Mamantov making very clear the translation of each sentence, each word, and I recall her statement was to the effect that she had looked in and seen a portion of the gun, of something which she took to be the gun she knew her husband had; that she had not opened the package, but had just looked into it.

They then brought in——

Mr. Jenner. Mrs. Paine, a slight interruption.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was the occasion when Mrs. Oswald, Marina, made the remark of having seen a weapon inside the blanket, was that the first notice that you had of any kind or character that there was a weapon in your garage?

Mrs. Paine. That is absolutely the first. Indeed it was contrary to my expectation as I said. When the officer asked me I answered his question before I even translated it, answered it in the negative, and then translated it and found that indeed there had been a gun there.

Mr. Jenner. All right, go ahead.

Mrs. Paine. They then showed a gun, a rifle to Marina, and asked her if she could identify the gun as being her husband's.

82 She said her husband had a dark gun, dark in color, that she wasn't absolutely certain that this was the gun. She couldn't definitely recall the sight on the top of it.

Mr. Jenner. The telescope sight?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. Then I also was asked to make an affidavit which I signed, to the effect that I had heard her say in the garage that she had looked into this package and seen what she took to be a rifle she knew her husband had. It was after they had finished with this session that I went back in the same room where Michael was, and Mrs. Oswald, senior, came in, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. Had you met her at anytime up to that moment?

Mrs. Paine. No. I had never met her before.

Mr. Jenner. Had you ever talked with her at anytime up to that moment?

Mrs. Paine. I had never talked with her.

Mr. Jenner. Were you advised in advance of anything that had been said that she was to come?

Mrs. Paine. No. She said she had heard on her car radio, on her way to work in the afternoon.

Mr. Jenner. What time was this about?

Mrs. Paine. She heard it?

Mr. Jenner. No; that she came?

Mrs. Paine. It was, it was certainly supper time. We had eaten no lunch.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. And she said she heard on her car radio that Lee Oswald had been in custody in Dallas and had come over. Previously during October and November Marina had told me she regretted that Lee didn't wish to keep up contact with his mother because she thought it was only proper to tell the mother of the coming grandchild, and then she wanted to announce the birth when the baby had come but she said Lee didn't try to keep her address, and Marina didn't know how to contact her or didn't want to do so around her husband certainly. There was a warm greeting in the police station.

Mr. Jenner. Between whom?

Mrs. Paine. Between Marguerite Oswald and Marina Oswald and I recall both wept and Mrs. Marguerite Oswald exclaimed over the new baby, and then held the baby. I then also met Robert Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. When did he come with relation to when Marguerite Oswald entered?

Mrs. Paine. It seemed to me later.

Mr. Jenner. Had you met Robert Oswald at anytime up to that moment?

Mrs. Paine. No; I had not.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion that had taken place during the course of the day up to that moment indicating to you that Robert Oswald might or would arrive on the scene?

Mrs. Paine. No; nothing that day about Robert at all.

Mr. Jenner. When he entered was there an indication to you at all that none of the people, in addition to yourself, was aware that he was about to—that they had any advance advice that he was going to be present?

Mrs. Paine. There was no indication of any advance advice to any of the people.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any indication to the contrary?

Mrs. Paine. I don't think anyone was really surprised that he had come.

Mr. Jenner. There was this lack of prior notice?

Mrs. Paine. Lack of prior notice. We then talked about where to go.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, does the "we" include your husband all the time?

Mrs. Paine. The "we" then was a group at this point of my husband, Marguerite Oswald, Marina Oswald, Robert Oswald, and myself, three children.

Mr. Jenner. Did your husband know Robert Oswald prior to this time?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Were they introduced to each other on this occasion?

Mrs. Paine. They were in the same room and they might have been. It was agreed that Robert was to stay in a hotel. Marguerite Oswald asked if she could come out and stay with Marina at my home, and it was agreed.

83 Mr. Jenner. Was it agreed that Marina would stay at your house that night?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; certainly all her baby things were there. So, we went back there. We were taken back by police officers.

Mr. Jenner. Everybody assumed she would return back to your home?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, yes.

Mr. Jenner. Was there any discussion that would indicate any reluctance on the part of anybody that she return to your home?

Mrs. Paine. None.

Mr. Jenner. None whatsoever by anybody?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct, none whatsoever by anybody.

The police officers brought us back to my home. It was by this time dark, and I think it was about 9 o'clock in the evening. I asked Michael to go out and buy hamburgers at a drive-in so we wouldn't have to cook, and we ate these as best we could, and began to prepare to retire. We talked. I have a few specific recollections of that period that I will put in here.

Just close to the time of retiring Marina told me that just the night before Lee had said to her he hoped they could get an apartment together again soon. As she said this, I felt she was hurt and confused, wondering how he could have said such a thing which indicated wanting to be together with her when he must have already been planning something that would inevitably cause separation. I asked her did she think that Lee had killed the President and she said, "I don't know." And I felt that this was not something to talk about really anyway. But my curiosity overcame my politeness.

Now, back a little bit to the time in the living room, Mrs. Oswald and Michael and Marina and I were all there, and Mrs. Oswald, I recall, said, I mean of course Mrs. Marguerite Oswald——

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. That if they were prominent people there would be three of the lawyers down in the city jail now trying to defend her son, and coming to his aid.

She felt that since they were just small people that there wouldn't—they wouldn't get the proper attention or care, and I tried to say this was not a small case. That most careful attention would be given it, but she didn't feel that way.

Mr. Jenner. You made no impression on her?

Mrs. Paine. I made no impression on her.

Mr. Jenner. I take it——

Mrs. Paine. She made an impression on me.

Mr. Jenner. I think we would prefer if you would call her Marguerite. It would avoid confusion.

Mrs. Paine. All right. Somewhere in that evening before we retired, and after we had eaten, the doorbell rang and two men from Life Magazine appeared. I was——

Mr. Jenner. Had you had any advance notice?

Mrs. Paine. We had had no advance notice.

Mr. Jenner. Nobody did?

Mrs. Paine. Nobody did.

Mr. Jenner. You in particular and none of the others in the room?

Mrs. Paine. None of the others.

Mr. Jenner. That was your impression?

Mrs. Paine. I would be quite certain that none of the others and myself——

Mr. Jenner. At least that was your impression at the moment?

Mrs. Paine. That they had no prior information that these people might come. I will say I was not surprised that anyone of the press found his way to our door at that point. If anything, I was surprised there weren't more. Life Magazine was the only company or group to appear that evening. I permitted them to come in, and I felt that Mrs. Marguerite Oswald was interested in the possibility of their buying the story or paying for what information she and Marina might give them.

Mr. Jenner. Had that occurred to you?

Mrs. Paine. Had that occurred to me? No. But then, too, I wasn't thinking about pay for lawyers but she made that connection verbally in my presence.

84 Mr. Jenner. What connection?

Mrs. Paine. Between the need for money.

Mr. Jenner. Yes.

Mrs. Paine. The availability of Life Magazine and the need to pay for a lawyer.

Mr. Jenner. And she was the one who raised that subject?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; she raised it.

Mr. Jenner. For commercialization of the story?

Mrs. Paine. I recall now she raised it definitely enough that Mr. Tommy Thompson of Life called, I believe still that evening, to see if he could offer anything or what he might be empowered to offer.

Mr. Jenner. That was all instigated by her?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; very much so. I noticed that the other man, whose name I forget, had a camera and I was amazed, and I also saw he took a picture and I was amazed, he tried with a dim light in the room.

Mr. Jenner. When you say he took a picture, you don't mean he took a picture from your living room?

Mrs. Paine. He took a picture in my living room. He photographed. I saw him wind his roll.

Mr. Jenner. Thank you.

Mrs. Paine. I made the mistake I now think of turning on another light simply as an act of hostess, it was dim in the living room but I hadn't realized until later that I was making it possible for him to take a picture.

I didn't know what was best for me to do as hostess. It seemed to me that Mrs. Oswald, Sr., Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, was both interested in encouraging the Life Magazine representatives and still didn't really want her picture taken, and I had no personal objection to their being there. But I considered the Oswalds my guests and I didn't want to have the Life Magazine people there if they didn't want them. But they left fairly promptly, saying that they would come back in the morning.

Mr. Jenner. Did they say anything about your talking or not talking to any other news media representatives until they had talked with you?

Mrs. Paine. Not to me.

Mr. Jenner. Nothing of that implied?

Mrs. Paine. No. It was after this that the conversation I have already related with Marina took place, and we finished our preparations for bed. She said to me she didn't think she would sleep fairly soon and asked if she could borrow my hair dryer, she would stay up and take a shower, which she often said renewed her spirits, and I then went to bed, having given her my hair dryer. We woke perhaps something after 7 the next morning or closer to 8.

Mr. Jenner. When you say "we", who do you mean?

Mrs. Paine. The household. I think we had not yet—we pretty much woke all at once.

Mr. Jenner. Did your husband remain at your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; he remained at my home that night, the first time he had been there in a great long time. We were still eating breakfast or had just begun when the two Life people arrived again, this time with an interpreter, a woman doctor whose name I don't remember, and Marguerite Oswald and Marina Oswald, with her two little girls went with these two Life Magazine people to downtown Dallas for the purpose of seeing Lee, and Marguerite Oswald wanted to see that he got legal counsel immediately.

They were acting, the Life people were acting in this case as shovers, I feel, and I also thought Marguerite Oswald was hoping that something could be arranged between them, that would be financially helpful.

Mr. Jenner. Did she say anything that further stimulated your thoughts and reaction in that direction?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I don't recall specifically but I have the clear impression that——

Mr. Jenner. From her conversation with the Life representatives?

Mrs. Paine. From her conversation. Yes. They left quite soon, I remember wishing Marina had taken more time to have more breakfast since it was going to be a trying day, and that is the last I saw her until March 9, in the evening, very recently.

85 Mr. Jenner. March 9, 1964?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Just a week or so ago?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. She left, of course, expecting to come back. She took only the immediate needs of the baby's diapers and bottle, and I fully expected her to come back later that same day. I don't really recall. I think there must have been some newsmen out then that morning, later that morning.

Mr. Jenner. To see you, at your home?

Mrs. Paine. At my home. I would be certain of that. The Houston Post—well, yes. And Michael was there also, at least in the morning as I recall, and talked with these people.

I believe the local paper, Irving News, was there. Then Michael, as I recall, went to do something related to his work or had to do some shopping.

Mr. Jenner. He left your home?

Mrs. Paine. Anyway, in the afternoon I was the only one there and I felt I had better get some grocery shopping done so as to be prepared for a long stay home just answering the doorbell and telling what I could to the people who wanted to know. I was just preparing to go to the grocery store when several officers arrived again from the Dallas Police Office and asked if they could search.

This time I was in the yard, the front yard on the grass, and asked if they could search and held up their warrant and I said, yes, they could search. They said they were looking for something specific and I said, "I want to go to the grocery store, I'll just go and you go ahead and do your searching."

I then went to the grocery store and when I came back they had finished and left, locking my door which necessitated my getting out my key, I don't normally lock my door when I go shopping.

Representative Ford. Did you take your children shopping?

Mrs. Paine. Always. Then about 3:30 or 4 I got a telephone call.

Mr. Jenner. The phone rang?

Mrs. Paine. The phone rang; I answered it.

Mr. Jenner. Did you recognize the voice?

Mrs. Paine. I recognized the voice but I don't recall what he said?

Mr. Jenner. What did the voice say?

Mrs. Paine. The voice said: "This is Lee."

Mr. Jenner. Give your best recollection of everything you said and if you can, please, everything he said, and exactly what you said.

Mrs. Paine. I said, "Well, Hi." And he said he wanted to ask me to call Mr. John Abt in New York for him after 6 p.m. He gave me a telephone number of an office in New York and a residence in New York.

Mr. Jenner. Two telephone numbers he gave you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. One office and one residence of Mr. John Abt. Did he say who Mr. John Abt was?

Mrs. Paine. He said he was an attorney he wanted to have.

Mr. Jenner. Represent him?

Mrs. Paine. To represent him. He thanked me for my concern.

Mr. Jenner. Did he tell you or ask you what you were to do or say to Mr. Abt if you reached him?

Mrs. Paine. I carried the clear impression I was to ask him if he would serve as attorney for Lee Oswald.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Have you given the substance of the conversation in as much detail, of the entire conversation, as you now can recall?

Mrs. Paine. There is a little more that is——

Senator Cooper. Why don't you just go ahead and tell it as you remember it, everything that he said and you said?

Mrs. Paine. I can't give the specific words to this part but I carry a clear impression, too, that he sounded to me almost as if nothing out of the ordinary had happened.

I would make this telephone call for him, would help him, as I had in other ways previously. He was, he expressed gratitude to me. I felt, but did not86 express, considerable irritation at his seeming to be so apart from the situation, so presuming of his own innocence, if you will, but I did say I would make the call for him.

Then he called back almost immediately. I gather that he had made the call to me on the permission to make a different call and then he got specific permission from the police to make a call to me and the call was identical.

Mr. Jenner. This is speculation?

Mrs. Paine. This is speculation but the content of the second call was almost identical.

Mr. Jenner. The phone rang?

Mrs. Paine. He asked me to contact John Abt.

Mr. Jenner. He identified himself and he asked you to make the call?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say?

Mrs. Paine. He wanted me to call this lawyer.

Mr. Jenner. Did you express any surprise for him to call back almost immediately giving you the same message that he had given previously?

Mrs. Paine. I think somebody must have said, that the officers had said he could call, make this call.

Mr. Jenner. Did you say anything about the fact that he had already just called you about the same subject matter?

Mrs. Paine. He may have added.

Mr. Jenner. Did you, please?

Mrs. Paine. No. I was quite stunned that he called at all or that he thought he could ask anything of me, appalled, really.

Mr. McCloy. Did he say he was innocent, or did he just have this conversation with respect to the retention of a counsel?

Mrs. Paine. That is all.

Mr. Jenner. At no time during either of those conversations did he deny that he was in any way involved in this situation?

Mrs. Paine. He made no reference to why he was at the police station or why he needed a lawyer.

Mr. Jenner. He just assumed that you knew he was at the police station, did he?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. That was your impression?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. He didn't say where he was?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. He just started out saying what you now say he said?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. But in no respect did he say to you that he was entirely innocent of any charges that had been made against him?

Mrs. Paine. He did not say that.

Mr. Jenner. Did he mention the subject at all of the assassination of the President or the slaying of Officer Tippit?

Mrs. Paine. No; he did not.

Mr. Jenner. What you have given is your best recollection of the entire conversation?

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Representative Ford. This was Saturday afternoon, November 23?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Representative Ford. About what time?

Mrs. Paine. Four, perhaps in the afternoon.

Representative Ford. Had you seen him the day before?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. McCloy. Who was in the house with you when that call came in?

Mrs. Paine. Just my children.

Mr. McCloy. Just your children.

Representative Ford. While you were shopping and after the officers had come with a warrant, they went in the house, no one was in the house?

87 Mrs. Paine. For a portion of the time they were looking, no one was in the house.

Representative Ford. They were there alone?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. McCloy. Did they indicate—were they still there when you got back?

Mrs. Paine. No; they were not. Remember the door was locked.

Mr. McCloy. Yes; the door was locked, that is what I gather. Do you know what they took on this occasion, or did they tell you what they were coming for?

Mrs. Paine. No; I do not. Before I left they were leafing through books to see if anything fell out but that is all I saw.

Mr. McCloy. All right.

Mrs. Paine. In this interim then, I suppose I talked to some more news people but I want to get to the next important point which was that Lee called again.

Mr. Jenner. A third time?

Mrs. Paine. I really call the first two one, but it was twice dialed.

Mr. Jenner. Fix the time, please.

Mrs. Paine. It was around 9:30 in the evening.

Mr. Jenner. Who was home? Was your husband there on that occasion?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall.

Mr. Jenner. Was anyone else other than your children and yourself in your home at the time of the receipt of the call in the evening?

Mrs. Paine. It could only have been Michael. I would remember someone else.

Mr. Jenner. But you have no definite recollection that even he was present?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. All right. The phone rang, you answered it.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you recognize the voice?

Mrs. Paine. I recognized the voice.

Mr. Jenner. Whose was it?

Mrs. Paine. It was Lee Oswald's.

Mr. Jenner. What did he say and what did you say?

Mrs. Paine. He said, "Marina, please," in Russian.

Mr. Jenner. Please, Mrs. Paine, did he speak to you in English in the conversations in the afternoon or in Russian?

Mrs. Paine. He spoke in English the entire conversation.

Mr. Jenner. The two in the afternoon?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Now, however, he resorted to Russian, did he?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. He planned to speak to Marina.

Mr. Jenner. I beg your pardon?

Mrs. Paine. He planned to speak to Marina, and this opening phrase was one he normally used calling as he had many previous times to speak to her.

Mr. Jenner. He was under the assumption, you gathered, that Marina was in your home?

Mrs. Paine. He certainly was.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. And I would be fairly certain that I answered him in English. I said she was not there, that I had a notion about where she might be, but I wasn't at all certain. That I would try to find out. He said, he wanted me to—he said he thought she should be at my house. He felt irritated at not having been able to reach her. And he wanted me to——

Mr. Jenner. Did he sound irritated?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; he sounded just a slight edge to his voice. And he wanted me to deliver a message to her that he thought she should be at my house.

Mr. Jenner. And he so instructed you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. That is what he said?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. That was so far as I remember, the entire conversation.

Mr. Jenner. What response did you give to his direction?

Mrs. Paine. I said I would try to reach her.

88 Mr. Jenner. His direction——

Mrs. Paine. And tell her his message.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine, in the meantime, had you sought to reach John Abt?

Mrs. Paine. I had, after 6 o'clock, thank you. I had dialed both numbers and neither answered.

Mr. Jenner. Neither answered. Was there any conversation between you and Lee Oswald in the evening conversation to which you reported to him your inability to reach Mr. Abt?

Mrs. Paine. I do not specifically recall.

Mr. Jenner. Or the subject of Mr. Abt at all?

Mrs. Paine. I don't want to get into rationalization. I can judge that something was said but I do not recall it specifically.

Mr. Jenner. Now, have you given the full extent of that conversation?

Mrs. Paine. To the best of my recollection.

Mr. Jenner. At anytime during that conversation with Lee Harvey Oswald did he assert or intimate in any form or fashion his innocence of any charges against him?

Mrs. Paine. No; he did not.

Mr. Jenner. Was the assassination mentioned at all?

Mrs. Paine. No; it was not.

Mr. Jenner. Was the shooting or murder of Officer Tippit mentioned?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. You have given everything that was said in that conversation as best you are able to recall it at the moment?

Mrs. Paine. That is right. I then tried the only thing I knew to do, to try to reach Marina. I had heard one of the FBI agents try to find her when he was at my home, had dialed the hotel where the Life people were staying, and asked to be put in contact with Marina and was told, I judge, because he repeated it and wrote it down. Executive Inn. Here I am turning detective in this small way.

Mr. Jenner. You also mentioned now for the first time there were FBI agents in your home?

Mrs. Paine. That day.

Mr. Jenner. During the course of the day?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. I then dialed——

Mr. Jenner. You shook your head, did you shake your head in the affirmative?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; there were FBI agents in my home during the day. One I recalled made this telephone call. I was waiting to hear from Marina to see if she wanted to talk with me. I had no desire to press her or to attempt to reach her unless she wanted to reach me, but then with this message, I went ahead and dialed the Executive Inn and asked for Tommy Thompson, and Marguerite Oswald answered, and I said I would like to talk to Marina, and she said, "Well, Marina is in the bathroom," and I said to Marguerite that Lee had called me, that he wanted me to deliver a message to Marina, that he wished for her to be at my home, and Marguerite Oswald said, "Well, he is in prison, he don't know the things we are up against, the things we have to face. What he wants doesn't really matter," which surprised me. And again I asked to speak to Marina and waited until I did speak to her and delivered the same message in Russian to her but there was no further——

Mr. Jenner. What response did Marina make to the message that you conveyed to her?

Mrs. Paine. She said she was very tired and wanted to get to bed, as I recall, and thought it was certainly best to stay there that night.

Mr. Jenner. Is that your best recollection?

Mrs. Paine. Yes. And I certainly agreed with her.

Mr. Jenner. Did she say anything in response to your delivery of Lee Oswald's message about Marina staying with you, of the possibility of her staying with you, say, the next day?

Mrs. Paine. Nothing of that nature was said. I think I remember that we did discuss whether she had seen Lee during the day, and on that occasion89 it seems to me I learned that she had seen him around noon but I may be wrong about when I learned that. I knew she had seen him.

Mr. Jenner. Either in that conversation or any other conversation with Marina that you may have had, was the subject of Lee Oswald's attitude or any comments he made mentioned?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Nobody reported to you anything about any conversation they might or did have with Lee Oswald either on the 22d or 23d or even on the 24th of November 1963?

Mrs. Paine. No. I am of the impression I again tried the home telephone of John Abt on Sunday morning, but I am not certain, and there was no answer. That I certainly remember.

Mr. McCloy. Did you ever reach Abt?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever attempt to report to Lee Oswald that you had been unable to reach Mr. Abt?

Mrs. Paine. Not unless such transpired in our 9:30 conversation Saturday evening, but I made no effort to call the police station itself.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me?

Mrs. Paine. I made no effort to call the police station.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have at anytime any further conversations with Lee Oswald?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Other than what you have now related?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. McCloy. Did you have any impression as to why he wanted Marina to come back with you? Was it in order to make her available for telephone calls from him or what?

Mrs. Paine. What is distinctly my impression is that he thought she should be available. That it was she wasn't where he could find her that irritated him rather than that he thought this was the best place for her.

Representative Ford. Did you know of Mr. Abt or was this just——

Mrs. Paine. I had never heard of Mr. Abt before.

Representative Ford. Never heard of him?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Senator Cooper. Did Marguerite Oswald explain any further, in the statement you said she made, about having too many obstacles or having obstacles or having troubles?

Mrs. Paine. Are you referring to the statement on Friday night when she was at my home?

Senator Cooper. No. I think you said a few minutes ago when she went to the hotel you called her and told her what Lee Oswald had told you to tell Marina.

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Senator Cooper. I think you said she said something about——

Mrs. Paine. "Well, he doesn't understand the things we are up against or things of this nature." What I remember most clearly is that she didn't seem to care whether he was told the truth or not.

Mr. Jenner. What?

Mrs. Paine. Well, that is perhaps a further statement, told the truth about—had it seemed to me a lack of respect on her part. She didn't care what his wishes were in the situation, in other words. And this sticks in my mind.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have any conversation with Robert Oswald on the 22d, subsequent to the time that you met him when he first come to the police station?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. Did you on the 23d of November?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. The 24th?

Mrs. Paine. I believe the only other time I saw Robert was some 3 weeks or more later when he came with two other people to pick up the rest of Marina's things.

90 Mr. Jenner. Then from the 22d of November until he came sometime in December you had no conversation with him and you had not seen him?

Mrs. Paine. That is right.

Mr. Jenner. You had no contact at all with him?

Mrs. Paine. That is my best recollection. Marina called me around noon on Sunday, the 24th. She said she was with the police, and, of course, this was said in Russian; I don't know whether she meant Secret Service or Irving Police or Dallas Police or what sort, but official. Her husband had already been shot at this time, so it was just after. He had been shot and I had the television on and I knew that.

Representative Ford. Did she know it?

Mrs. Paine. I am certain she did. What makes me certain I can't recall definitely. I felt that she was confining herself in her conversation to the things she just had to say.

Senator Cooper. What did she say?

Mrs. Paine. She was directing me how to find certain things she needed to have. A winter coat, things for the baby, a little purse with some money in it that she left either on top of the dresser or in a drawer in the bedroom where they had stayed.

Mr. Jenner. Did she sound less than cordial——

Mrs. Paine. Oh, no, she sounded, as I recall it, as a call from a woman who was doing her best to simply achieve the things she had to do but was under a tremendous strain.

Mr. Jenner. Was any mention made of the death of her husband?

Mrs. Paine. He was not yet dead, he had been shot but he was not yet dead.

Mr. Jenner. Was any mention made between you in this conversation of the fact that Lee Oswald had been shot?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall such.

Mr. Jenner. You didn't mention it?

Mrs. Paine. I did not tell her; no.

Mr. Jenner. Did you—it might be natural that you would express sympathy. Did you mention the subject at all, sympathetical or otherwise?

Mrs. Paine. I don't recall mentioning the subject and as I say, I have this distinct feeling that she knew, and I knew she knew but what caused that, I can't identify.

Mr. Jenner. Did you have the feeling, if I may use some vernacular, that she was "under wraps" or rather she was bereft and just seeking to do——

Mrs. Paine. I had no feeling she was restraining herself from saying any particular things.

Mr. Jenner. Was under restraint?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. Jenner. From some outside source?

Mrs. Paine. I had no such feeling.

Mr. Jenner. All right.

Mrs. Paine. I then, well, I should say there were one or two officers from the Irving Police Department there who were waiting to take the things that she directed——

Mr. Jenner. The police officers had already arrived at your home?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I guess I remembered it as virtually simultaneous. I might fill in, whether it is important to your inquiry or not, the moment the television announced that Lee Oswald had been shot, an Irving Police patrol car that had been going by my house and had hesitated in front, stopped and the officer got out carrying a rifle and came into my house, closed the curtains and said he was here to protect me. I later learned that he thought Mrs. Oswald, Marina Oswald, was in the house, and he had been directed by his car radio to come in, and he then closed all the blinds and peered out. And it was in the midst of this time that Marina called, so you see the officers were there already on other business.

Mr. Jenner. The officer was in your home when you talked with Marina?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; when Marina made the call.

Mr. Jenner. Did you say anything to the officers that Marina had called when you finished that conversation?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

91 Mr. Jenner. You told them?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. Did you tell them anything of the substance of the call?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; that I was to get some things and I think they had the same information separately a different way from a car radio or something at the same time, which was to put some things together to take to her. I did then pack one or two, or even three of the suit cases we talked about yesterday with baby things.

Mr. Jenner. Excuse me, Mrs. Paine. You keep referring to one or two or three. Were there as many as three?

Mrs. Paine. I think there were as many as three, including a very small, you might say, cosmetic case, only more, not as fancy as that. This was in her room, and I recall looking in it and seeing a family album of photographs and thinking this had better be in her hands, and included that along with clothes. I sent a childs toy, some things that I thought might be helpful to her in keeping her children happy as well as the individual items she had asked for specifically.

Mr. McCloy. Did you sense any note of estrangement at all between you and Marina when she telephoned you?

Mrs. Paine. No; the situation was strained.

Mr. McCloy. Strained because she hadn't reappeared, you mean?

Mrs. Paine. No; because her husband had been shot.

Mr. McCloy. No; I meant in your conversation with her was there any indication of any coolness between you?

Mrs. Paine. No; none I detected.

Mr. Jenner. Had you noticed any when you were in the police station?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, no.

Mr. Jenner. On the previous day?

Mrs. Paine. Oh, no.

Mr. Jenner. None at all. So that up to the moment of this telephone conversation and after you finished you had no feeling there was any estrangement, any coolness, any change in attitude on the part of Marina toward you as a person?

Mrs. Paine. No.

Mr. McCloy. Have you felt any evidence of that since?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; and that has several parts to it and I could easily go into it now.

Mr. Jenner. I was going to ask her some general questions and Senator Cooper asked me if I would permit her just to go through the day as she has without, with a minimum of, interruptions so that you and he might, and Representative Ford, might ask some general questions before you left, so that is what I have done.

Mr. McCloy. Have you completed your report?

Mrs. Paine. That brings us to the 24th so that all else is really quite post the assassination.

Mr. McCloy. There is one thing I would like to ask before I go, if I may, and that is your husband testified that several times he had moved this blanket when it was in the garage. Can you fix the date when he was in your house and working in the garage so that he was compelled to move the blanket? When did he come to——

Mrs. Paine. He normally came on Friday evening. He would sometimes come on a Sunday afternoon, and either of those times could have been times that he had worked in the garage.

Mr. McCloy. That was all through September, October?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; September, October; yes.